Roll Rates from the wakes to the ball

Horton

Somehow over the years I had gotten the idea in my head that to run an earlier line from the wakes to the ball I needed to ride a flatter ski leaving the second wake. On paper it makes sense that a flatter ski will maintain more speed and travel around the pylon faster. The result is that I end up going fast and parallel to the boat once I get wide. Yes I am wide and early but the ski is not arcing.

A few weeks ago I was skiing with @brooks and he coached me to set a stronger inside edge immediately after edge change. This does not mean releasing rope tension or allowing my mass to move to the inside prematurely. It is mechanically a small change with a large impact. It just means getting the ski rolled over more decisively sooner. When I remember to do it the improvement is clear.

I have also had some lower level skiers focus on the same thing with universal success. Learn something new every ski season.

MISkier

When I talk about this with others or remind myself to do it, it is primarily (almost solely) in regard to changing edge going into the offside turn. I usually term it this way: "At or immediately after the wake, get the ski to roll under you with your upper body remaining still." I also remind them not to lean their upper body into the boat or reach while doing that. Those actions will just send you downcourse and narrow. Need to be still and remain connected and away from the boat while the ski rolls. Then, work on the reach and other preturn actions going into your apex.

We are all lower level skiers (some running 32 off, some running 28 off).

As you mentioned, it is usually greatly successful in creating space and arc before the offside turn, assuming you did not have an abysmal prior onside turn or horrible gate (for RFF skiers going into an offside 1 ball).

Edited: I noticed I said ""onside" in my first sentence. I meant offside.

igkya

Something I need to continually work on. I find it easier to do on my off-side pulls as for my onside, I tend to pull too hard and start coming up with too much roll and upper body starts getting pulled down course.

skialex

There is a video from some years ago, of Seth Stisher teaching this…

A_B

@Horton, this is the move you and I were in debate over years ago. Seth says it much better. My simplistic brain said move the ski out in front of me because I couldn't get it on a turn edge under me while maintaining back arm pressure. Some guys say the ski squirts out because of pressure release. Whatever you call it, Reverse C, moving the ski behind the handle, all the top skiers have it and they get it real quick off the second wake or sooner.

skihart

@Horton what does this earlier move help you with specifically? What is the result of this? Less slack? More width? More yaw before the buoy?

ghutch

@Horton ...... and a little more explanation please.

Horton

@skialex @A_B with all due respect for Seth ( who is a much better skier an I am ) I think that is less than ideal. If your feet get in front of your mass then you are literally on the back of the ski. Many skiers including some of the best in the world have their feet in front of their mass for a split second off the second wake. This is not by design but as a release of excess load in the rope. Ideally you would want your feet to be under your mass at all times. At edge change you want your feet to move away from the pylon not forward in front of you mass.

So what I am talking about in this thread is making sure I my feet move more way from the pylon at edge change. You have read the long thread about my On Side? One of the big issues there is the fact that my feet go forward at edge change so my mass is back on the way out to the ball. This is where my problems get real. Why would I ever want to be in the back of the ski?

6balls

The trick is to get that inside edge w/out making the "all or nothing" move of simultaneously giving up rope tension and reaching.

Keeping rope tension, both hands on, elbows tight--on an outbound but inside edge is I believe what separates the pretty good from great. (sure there is lots of other stuff, too)

Horton

@6balls 100%. It is not a lot of roll and yes you do not want to let the handle out or your shoulders to the inside?

A_B

@Horton How do you propose to move the ski out under load? Getting the hips and feet out in front of you momentarily unloads the ski so it can move out. If you are going to your onside turn RFF, the load from the boat
Has to transfer to your right hand about middle to second wake. This is when you unweight the ski. Don’t say it happens automatically because why isn’t it happening for you or every skier? It did not happen for me.


This is a learned move IMO.

Horton

@A_B ideally by the time you are at center line you should already be starting to rise up out of your lean and bleeding off any excess load. If you need to break free of load I would say you have too much or something else is wrong

6balls

@A_B getting onto the swing--load to your feet in the lean transitions to the only load in the line as the ski travels wider to maintain the tension(ideally tho on an inside edge). So difficult! There is a reason my PB is where it is-I couldn't master this. Pulling hard, dumping to the inside edge and giving up line tension, cranking a turn only gets a skier so far.

Horton

All this stuff is a matter of degrees. I tend to ride a flat ski approaching one side. so for me I need to allow the ski to set more edge sooner. If you are bouncing to the inside you have the opposite problem. Generally speaking the higher off the water your inside shoulder & head is off the water the better... until you get to my problem where the ski is stuck under my mass.

6balls

For me thinking about reaching down the buoy line and parallel to the water was helpful. Sounds dumb but was trying to keep that inside shoulder up especially if I was early--then slide under the rope at the ball and go.
I know I wasn't really reaching down course as the rope got short--but just the idea I wasn't reaching to the inside and letting my inside shoulder drop to create an over-turn and loss of momentum. Was hard as a habitual on-side over-turner.

Horton

@6balls might try keeping chin farther off the water from center line to apex

ScottScott

Coming from one of those "lower level skiers," when I'm skiing well I feel this happening. I always considered it to be a result, more than a cause tho. Maybe it is something to think about.....but when I set things up with a good gate, with head up and good vision to 1 ball....it just happens, and sets my rhythm up for the rest of the pass. (it doesn't happen often, but when it happens I feel it.)

6balls

@horton I like it perhaps a crafty way to get the head more level.

Horton

Head level is super important. I think the key there is to just focus your vision. If you are actually looking at something ( anything ) your head will level itself.

ColeGiacopuzzi

I think I can help clear this up a bit. @Horton isn't to far off here.

I've skied with Brooks a ton and look to him a lot for coaching. What's really being said by Brooks and Seth is we're letting our feet swing underneath us while our body stays still, but its slowing that process down. If our feet swing to fast, we lose the line tension and our outward direction and puts our ski, body and handle path to the inside. We will only get so much swing now and it will stop and Our path now is going straight at the buoy instead of continually building and carrying our width all the way out to apex and creating an arcing turn. Remember from centerline to buoy is one big turn, we just need to control it.

Now how we do that; the term I was taught and might be a different way to think about for a lot of people is "feel that power through your legs", we're controlling or slowing down that motion of when the ski swings underneath us at the edge change, by doing that it puts us in the best position where we can allow the boat to pull us up into the highest swing possible thus giving us the ability to continually build width and ride that line up as high as we can into the turn. I Hope this helps.

6balls

@ColeGiacopuzzi love your statement:

Remember from centerline to buoy is one big turn, we just need to control it.

Cool concept. For so long the dogma was pull, pre-turn, turn--old school--how I grew up--only gets you so far. I think I had an old Bob Lapoint VHS that was pull, pre-turn, turn--was my only coaching early on.

Skoot1123

Truth bomb by @ColeGiacopuzzi! Awesome way to explain that. I find that I am rushing things so much in skiing. When we think about the incremental steps at that point in time then it slows everything down. Thanks for the feedback Cole!

ColeGiacopuzzi

@Skoot1123 No worries!! Yeah its a crazy difference when you focus on slowing movements down, everything becomes slower and smoother. You have more time than you think even at short line lengths.