Ski length vs drag?

208maverick

I'm 8 months into a new hip on my forward leg side, and finding that the muscles around that hip are compromised just enough to make deep water starts a helluva chore. I'm 6'2" and 250#, and have been skiing on a 69" Connelly Carbon V for the past 9 yrs. In addition to the V, I played around with a 69" Radar Senate Alloy this past weekend, and neither ski works particularly well for me so far on the pull out. I enjoy skiing the Senate almost as much as the V once up, and am contemplating grabbing it in a 71" length in order to be able to enjoy skiing this summer and put my hip thru a little less stress as it continues to recover. Before pulling the trigger on it though, I noticed that the 71" is the same width as the 69", so am curious if that longer ski is going to have much impact on the drag during deep water starts or if it's more likely to just reduce drag once up? Thoughts?

AdamCord

It's all about width when it comes to deep water starts. If your goal is easy deep water starts, get the widest ski you are comfortable skiing on.

Ski_Dad

how fast are you skiing?

208maverick

33-34 mph. All open water skiing.

Ski_Dad

@208maverick sent you a PM

Stevie Boy

Just my take, I tried wider or bigger ski, my experience was that, the wider/bigger skis actually put more pressure on my back due to bigger surface area., I am RTP two feet in.
Just a suggestion,ask your driver not to be too hard on the Throttle until you are rising on top of the water. If you are trying to stand too early, it will not help.
Change of technique may get you through, stay in a ball until you are gong along,then slowly stand up.
Even ride two skis or drop one until you get some strength back.
Some of what I have said may not help you at all, but I truly hope you can get it sorted out and enjoy your skiing again.

MitchellM

Are you feeling it in your hip or lower back?

I also ski a Carbon V. It's known as a pretty easy ski for deepwater starts. Light and fairly wide at the front. I've got a bit of a tweak in my back. I've evolved to an almost two part deepwater start. Have your driver gently ease the throttle forward for 2 seconds until your ski is on plane. Stay in that tight position with the rear of the ski under you. Then have them accelerate once the ski is out of the water and you can slowly stand. This requires a good driver who can peek back at you as you start.

UWSkier

I recently stepped down from a 71" to 69" senate. The 71 was marginally easier to get up on. If the 69 is a 10 effort. The 71 was a 9.5.

elr

I found it best not to change equipment after my THR (and back surgeries) - but I waited a year after my THR on the advice of my PT - and had no issues.

208maverick

"... Change of technique may get you through, stay in a ball until you are going along, then slowly stand up. Even ride two skis or drop one until you get some strength back...."

Coming out of that "ball" is where things go to hell... Hip is lacking in that particular movement right now [one of only 2 weak spots left with surgery recovery] and there's a short span where I've got little lateral control of the ski with that front foot. 1 out of 3 times it goes like clockwork, but if ANYTHING is off it's game over because there is no way for me to correct in that particular range of motion. I've actually found that fast, hard hit to work best for me right now, I think because that moment of instability is shortened. On the bright side, there's no hip pain involved in this, but it's taking its toll on my forearms and shoulders such that my runs are pretty short and sweet once up. Would be simplest and probably smartest for me to resort to the drop ski until hip strength improves a bit.

208maverick

"...I recently stepped down from a 71" to 69" senate. The 71 was marginally easier to get up on. If the 69 is a 10 effort. The 71 was a 9.5..."

Yeah, when I realized the 71 was the same width as the 69 I figured any advantage might be minimal... I was sorta hoping I was wrong and was counting on the collective wisdom here to tell me otherwise...

208maverick

"...I found it best not to change equipment after my THR (and back surgeries) - but I waited a year after my THR on the advice of my PT - and had no issues..."

Both my doc and PT said I'd probably find little quirks until the hip is a year old, but both gave me the go ahead to both snow ski and water ski as long as I didn't get stupid and was willing to pay attention to signs of fatigue/pain. My recovery has gone so well I really didn't expect to have any problems water skiing and figured I'd be light years ahead of where I was last summer skiing with a severely pained hip. This particular little quirk was a bit of a surprise to me. LOL.

OldboyII

Beginning of this season physical conditions and mental stress almost made me to give up skiing.
The sequence of HO freeride - Radar Union - My regular ski, returned me back to course (or at least to the rhythm of 6 turns.
@208maverick Radar Union is a proper instrument to get back on track.
IMO

jpwhit

If you're not being towed in gear at idle before the pull-up, you should try that. I have to be very careful on the deep water starts to keep my lower back happy. I find that a 2-step start, "in gear" followed by "Pull" once I'm moving pretty well makes a big difference. I also intentionally let the boat pull me far forward on the ski during the pull-up rather than resisting the pull. Just to the point of almost going over the front of the ski. Really reduces the stress on the deep water starts.

BraceMaker

@Stevie Boy so just to spit ball here. The more surface area the ski has the more lift it has the less strain you should feel ASSUMING the angle of the ski to the water is pretty flat and the driver doesn't hammer you.

Now if the ski is upright in the water that surface area isn't lift but is drag. I don't really like to talk to people about balling up in the water I think really what you want is a straight back, straight arms, flexed hips flexed knees and your back heel as close to your butt as you can get it. And then when the boat goes you are essentially rotating ontop of the ski which flattens the ski out in the water. When you are a "ball" your shoulders curve forwards and people tend to push with that back foot which turns the ski into a vertical plank and then they're finished the boat keeps moving and bang the handle pops out.

Stevie Boy

@BraceMaker, I use straight back, straight arms, heels close to the butt, I tend not to push, just let the boat pull me out, I am very front foot biased due to numerous knee surgeries on my rear leg.
When I have had a demo on, say the senate or a 68 Vapor instead of my normal 67, I noticed a bigger force on the deep water start, it didn't feel any easier, but drivers are used to giving me horsepower.
@208maverick is a big Guy, its going to take some work to get that hip strong again, I really admire him for getting back on the water and continue to ski.

208maverick

"... @Stevie Boy so just to spit ball here. The more surface area the ski has the more lift it has the less strain you should feel ASSUMING the angle of the ski to the water is pretty flat and the driver doesn't hammer you.

Now if the ski is upright in the water that surface area isn't lift but is drag. I don't really like to talk to people about balling up in the water I think really what you want is a straight back, straight arms, flexed hips flexed knees and your back heel as close to your butt as you can get it. And then when the boat goes you are essentially rotating ontop of the ski which flattens the ski out in the water. When you are a "ball" your shoulders curve forwards and people tend to push with that back foot which turns the ski into a vertical plank and then they're finished the boat keeps moving and bang the handle pops out..."

This is an awesome description and pretty much captures what I'm struggling with. You described very well how I typically pull out, having gravitated to this thru the years being a big guy on too small a ski. Pulling my back heel close to my butt while putting forward pressure with my front foot gets the ski riding high very quickly and my deep water starts take minimal effort. What I'm finding now however is that my hip is relatively weak in that particular position and I'm unable to force that ski flatter in the water, so it's riding more vertical in the water for a longer time, I'm collapsing into a ball, and creating a lot more drag. I think I'll drop the idea of a ski change and just go to a drop ski until my hip is strong enough to resume that technique.

Stevie Boy

@208maverick have you tried moving your bindings around small increments at a time fwd and aft, if you are not using Connelly bindings and you have put other bindings on stock measurement, it is likely, the binding will not be in the right place.
Another suggestion is look at the gap between front and back bindings, a adjustment there might make things a bit more comfortable, ie: wider stance
Just thoughts that might help.

JBB

Have you thought about the HO Carbon Omni Wide?

pgmoore

This might sound crazy, but I've learned the hard way that your shorts make a big difference when it comes to drag. Heavy trunks that absorb water are a killer. Lightweight trunks make a HUGE difference.

swbca

At age 77 I can still get up both feet in. It feels like my grip is the weakest link. I have recently learned to keep my body totally relaxed in that "ball" until the ski is supporting my weight. For me a slow boat start is the hardest because it prolongs everything thats hard about it.

I may go back to the dock start which never has the drag of starting from 0 with body and ski fully submerged. When you get the timing mastered its easier than deep water. But you still have to do the deep water start at the end of every pass.

208maverick

"...This might sound crazy, but I've learned the hard way that your shorts make a big difference when it comes to drag. Heavy trunks that absorb water are a killer. Lightweight trunks make a HUGE difference..."

Tight neoprene shorts are my friend for skiing.

"... Have you thought about the HO Carbon Omni Wide?..."

I only really considered a ski change as a stopgap measure [until my hip is at full strength again] because I have a great deal on a 71 Senate Alloy... Once I learned that ski was the same width as the 69 Senate, then that interest died. I think it probably makes more sense for me to use a drop ski and stick with the ski I'm most familiar with [and expect to use long term] to figure out any new quirks.

"... I may go back to the dock start which never has the drag of starting from 0 with body and ski fully submerged. When you get the timing mastered its much easier than deep water..."

I picked up and installed a Radar HRT in place of my back boot with this in mind. Will end up stepping off the back of another boat. Haven't really played much with that yet.

BraceMaker

Neo shorts are great I don't need them to start but I cannot stand when one leg is all bunched up after a start. Can't feel that through neoprene. I tried shorter shorts but my wife complained about the glare off my thighs so neoprene it is.

OldboyII

@BraceMaker swiming jammers is good alternative to neo shorts in hot days. Also unlimited No of color/design options )

BraceMaker

I'll check that out

208maverick

Thought I'd close the loop on this. I made two changes that have made a big difference. Switched from a Connelly Carbon V to an HO Carbon Omni Wide (5/16" more width from tip of front boot thru the tail) and I built a beginner style ski handle (deep V to allow ski to ride inside the V) with my favorite handle. The new ski has enough less drag in deepwater starts to be noticeable, and being able to Nestle the ski in the V of the rope took care of the lack of front foot lateral control I have with the new hip.