Why doesn't anyone s-turn 6 ball?

When skiers come in late and hot around 6 ball, they turn the buoy normally and end up taking a huge slack hit. When they come in late and hot around earlier balls, they s-turn and cut back to the wakes without a slack hit.
So why doesn't anyone s-turn the 6 ball? The only reason I could see not to is because you may end up cross the wakes before the gates, which doesn't matter on earlier balls but does after 6 ball. But I have to think you could adjust the pull to make it through the gates, at least in most instances.

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Comments

  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 4,055 Mega Baller

    distance and speed dictate the use of a s turn to get the line back off of 6 and the exit gate.
    distance from 6 ball to exit gates is 88' or 27 meters.
    distance from 5ball to 6 scoring boat guide 133' or 41 meters.
    line length: making that turn at 58k down course and shorter then 14 or 13 meters trying to get out exit gate slack line either in the air or coiling in the water there is not enough time for s turn survival.
    longer line lengths and slower speeds may be able to s turn.
    but what do I know?? by the way Todd dislikes
    the elderly!

    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    Vernon Reevemcskier41
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 1,301 Mega Baller
    edited September 8

    This is why Gordon Rathbun pushed for the left hand exit ball getting pushed back 14m.
    Mostly for safety, but as well to make the slack line rule equivalent for all 6 buoys.

    It was disappointing it did not gain more traction; unequivocally would enhance safety as opposed to some other recent edicts.

    Vernon Reeve
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 3,546 Mega Baller
    edited September 8

    @Gloersen, to your point, the other option could be to add a boat guide on the other 5 buoys to be the full buoy mark. It would be at 27 meters from the buoy being turned and on the same side of the centerline. The skier would have to be under a tight line and cross the boat guide line before that particular guide to receive the full buoy credit. I'm guessing this would take the S turn right out of the equation.

    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.

    RAWSki
  • escmanazeescmanaze Posts: 964 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★

    Ok, fine, I'll be that guy.


    What is an S-turn?

  • rockdogrockdog Posts: 738 Crazy Baller

    @escmanaze have you never watched a TWBC filmed pro event? Watch the mens final at the next event and all you'll see is s-turns at [email protected]

    Than_BoganbrodyJordanOzrogerw
  • rockdogrockdog Posts: 738 Crazy Baller


  • B_SB_S Posts: 366 Crazy Baller

    @escmanaze it's that thing they do after a safety check!😁 seriously though, it when a skiers late coming into a ball with too much speed. After rounding the ball, to manage the slack they do an s turn maneuver and try to ski back through the boat guides to get credit for a full ball.

  • ralral Posts: 2,034 Mega Baller

    How would you judge an S-turn?

    Rodrigo Andai

    Killer
  • keithh2oskierkeithh2oskier Posts: 868 Crazy Baller

    @ral based on the number of zigs and zags...

  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,848 Mega Baller

    @B_S 👏

    post of the year 🔨

    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    richfosterB_S
  • ralral Posts: 2,034 Mega Baller

    So if someone “zigs” outside the buoy without “zagging”, he might get one buoy?

    Do you define zig-zagging using a certain angle of the ski to one side and the other?

    Personally, I do not see a rule change like this happening.

    Maybe, if many want to change the rule for a reason, they could make it more difficult by using the farthest buoy guide as reference.

    Rodrigo Andai

    KillerJayShower
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,848 Mega Baller

    @ral

    Re-read @adamhcaldwell 's post.

    a successful s turn back to the boat guides could be 1/2 ( or 3/4...), the rest of the rules stay the same: 1/4, 1/2, an actual turn on the turning edge to the boat guides= full buoy

    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • ralral Posts: 2,034 Mega Baller

    @Drago , the issue is how you define “an actual turn on the turning edge”. There is no such a definition in the rulebook.

    Rodrigo Andai

    Killer
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,848 Mega Baller

    Seems simple enough.

    at 3 ball, past 1/4 buoy line, you are on your left edge until you reach the boat guides without slack

    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • ralral Posts: 2,034 Mega Baller

    So you can then S-turn at longer lines?

    Look at Regina at ball 3 in these images, She is well inside the 1/4 buoy line, and clearly in the right edge in the third pic, after being in the left edge at the bouy. 1/2 bouy for her?



    Rodrigo Andai

  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,848 Mega Baller

    Whelp, @ral certainly you can pick out that one-in-a-million shot. If she got back to the wake, I see he on the left edge the whole time (or at most flat, but trying to turn and get to the next buoy*) and I give her a full buoy with our new rules.

    *matter of fact, I believe that was 3 ball and she ran the whole pass

    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 1,301 Mega Baller

    that'd be an RJ-turn; full buoy score

    Dragoral
  • AndreAndre Posts: 1,917 Mega Baller
    edited September 9

    ...and suddenly,just like that, a S turn is not worth a full bouy ...?

    Tough crowd.Sure ,take the strategy out of the sport! H'bout the agility it takes to S turn 5 ball at 41 like 2 weeks ago Cali Pro Am ?

    My ski finish in 16.95 ...but my ass is out of tolerance!
    Killer
  • ralral Posts: 2,034 Mega Baller

    @Drago , yep. She ran that 39.

    In pic 3, she is on her right edge (see the spray), after being in the middle on pic 2. In the video, you can clearly see the (not at all standard…) s-turn she did.

    The thing is, judging intentions, like trying to turn, trying to get to the next buoy, or “at most” flat, in a specific edge is a tricky road to travel.

    What about JT style body slides then? Should be banned also?

    Rodrigo Andai

    KillerAndre
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 6,201 Mega Baller

    After 6 I always preferred letting the slack rope accumulate on the water, having a short up close and personal with the boat judge telling him to take cover, and taking a massive slack hit out the end gates 😁

    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    MastercrafterMDB1056
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,848 Mega Baller

    Whatever, why are you guys going crazy over this, it's a discussion, an idea. Obviously she would get a full buoy score since she went around the next buoy.

    It was a suggestion by Caldwell , as he thinks the s-turn to the gate line has lesser value than going for the next buoy, and I think is more than a half-baked idea. He was not talking about banning something , he was talking about a tweak in the rules.

    A quarter buoy is much more of a judgement call than whether the skier is making one solid move to the other side of the course.

    I've done my fair share of s-turns, as I’m sure Caldwell has, and I think an s turn may be worth 1/4 less points.

    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    BG1
  • ralral Posts: 2,034 Mega Baller
    edited September 10

    I do not feel anyone is getting crazy about this, just arguing different poiints of view. Mine is that it is very unclear how to judge a solid intention to do something.

    What about getting back to the wake after the buoy, with no S-turns involved? No solid move to the other side of the course, so less score as well?

    Rodrigo Andai

  • richfosterrichfoster Posts: 149 Baller

    I wonder what the panda thinks?

  • AndreAndre Posts: 1,917 Mega Baller

    Almost on the same subject, but how many of you pull back on the throttle for your ski partner waiting for the rope to come tight at 6 ball for less hit ?

    (Friendly training session with regular ski partners)

    My ski finish in 16.95 ...but my ass is out of tolerance!
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 7,130 Mega Baller

    Why give any points for an S turn? From a game theory standpoint, the existing rule creates a (strong) incentive to stop skiing. All you have to do is eliminate the entire concept of getting a "full" buoy by returning to the center line and BAM, incentive gone. Then everybody just skis as hard as they can.

    I've actually been thinking about this for many years, and I am quite convinced it would be better for both competitors and spectators.

    (You can, of course, rename the scores so that you don't always end up with a half. An easy option is just rename it to a full point at the spot that is now called half.)

    Nathaniel Bogan
    GarJayShowerVernon Reeve
  • JayShowerJayShower Posts: 33 Baller
    edited September 12

    I am curious when they implemented the half-buoy scoring, what the reasons were. I agree that getting rid of the half-buoy score and giving the full buoy right there would lead to more runoffs and would incentivize continued skiing too.

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 7,130 Mega Baller

    @JayShower It would definitely incentivize continued skiing, but it's actually much less clear whether it would lead to more runoffs. Sure, there would be fewer possible scores to choose from, so that could increase the number of ties. However, the current rules often incentivize stopping at a tie, as it is too risky to continue, so you give up and accept the runoff. In fact, this incentive even applies to skiers who are earlier in the order. If a pro has a chance to get a full 3 @ 10.25, they often are compelled to take that, since 3 almost always makes the finals, but 2.5 is far less reliable to get in! How many deeper 41s could happen if it was always strategically correct to just slam a turn at the 3 ball and see what happens!?

    So anyhow: My proposal would lead to more accidental ties, but far fewer intentional ties. It's not quite clear how those would balance out. But if indeed there ended up being more runoffs, I'd be more than happy to accept that consequence to let people actually ski!

    Those of you assuming I have lost my mind: Keep thinking about it. Reason through all the strategic consequences, as well as the simple fact that a score of 1.5 is very often the result of a much better start than a score of 2.

    I can't guarantee I'm right, but I have thought about this a lot for a long time.

    Nathaniel Bogan
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