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Stick with it even if you are late.

Bud ManBud Man Posts: 254
edited April 2011 in Technique & Theory
This is my fourth time on the water after removing my baggy dry suit/parachute. By the way, without the dry suit I’ve had to run the boat fewer RPMs. Perfect Pass Clasic. I had not planned to cut to 11.25m for a while because I feel that I have got to relearn everything. Why, I don’t know, but I did go up the rope and cut to purple. I rushed #1 and that was it and I was not at all surprised. I was going to let the rope out and work on the much needed form, but Jim Neely was pulling me today and encouraged me to give it another shot, so I did. I was skiing so poorly and late coming out of every buoy but stuck with it. We are always told to be patient even when we are late, so I did. If you watch this video, notice how far down course I am coming out of the buoys. And next time you are late, remember the advice that people always give us and stick with it. You might be as surprised as I was.



  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,174 Mega Baller
    Slow mo going into the waker and his transition after the second wake. Bud is getting a lot of angle into the wake and is able to cast his ski out and onto a turning edge right after the second wake. If he was carrying out on a pulling edge, he would be toast. The line would be a huge S.

    If you can't beleive he ran this, go watch Regina's 39.5 run in slo mo. That pass was incredible. I think she had to have about 8" of her ski in the water a few times at the finish of her turns, yet still pulled it off. Look closely at the entry into the wakes and the exit.
  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 1,035 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Check out far back on the boat you had drifted before you actually started to pull in towards the gates. Is this your normal gate?
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,015 Mega Baller
    edited April 2011
    @AB Regia on that 39.5 pass would have only 8 inches of the ski in the turn then get pulled out of shape pretty bad but would slam the ski back into the water and have about 80% of it in right before the first wake digging hard with a ton of angle. A truly amazing skier. I found the video on YT

    @Bud you do use PP right?
  • bxroadsbxroads Posts: 219
    What program are you guys using to convert the youtube video and then what program are you using to view the video after conversion from youtube?
  • Bud ManBud Man Posts: 254
    edited April 2011
    @Bruce55, Perfect Pass Classic with switch. Jim said that I was getting 16.95s and 16.96s up to that pass and I pulled it down to 17.02, I think is what Jim said. He pulled me last week when I was in my baggy dry suit. I think he said that he was giving it a +25 or +30 factor when I ran 38 then. This time he had it on +00 factor. And the only change I believe was the dry suit. It is hard to believe that it added that much drag to me and the boat.

    @bxroads, is a good one if the video is not too big. Then you can use Windows Meda Player to Slow and frame by frame your You Tubes.
  • ralral Posts: 1,718 Mega Baller
    edited April 2011
    I got a piece of advice from a world class coach: if you got the angle, you will get to the buoy. What he was trying to make me do (without too much success, I am a slow learner) is, when late, concentrate in waiting and getting a good position after the turn, more than trying to recover by "killing" it at the buoy. With good angle and position you will make it to the next buoy even if you are 5 meters late after the buoy, with poor angle and position, it will be difficult even if earlier after the buoy.


    IMHO, you need to fix that gate to get a better 1 and make your life easier... I am LFF and have been getting a lot of coaching in my gate, so if you want I can comment what I would do if I was you.
    Rodrigo Andai
  • jwrjwr Posts: 337 Baller

    I would be interested to hear. I agree on the angle. One of my first sets on my new ski I pulled out for the gates, and didn't realize how much faster the new ski was going to be. I looked into the boat and laughed as I blew by the gates. Decided to turn in anyway, I missed the gates late by 3-5 feet and still ended up running the pass. It kind of opened my eyes a little on gates.
    Obrien Elite 30" 6.845, 2.510, .80 PB [email protected]
  • Bud ManBud Man Posts: 254
    @ral, I would be very interested, as well as other skiers would like to hear that struggle like I do. I am always eager to hear what I do wrong and right. I like to stop the wrong things and repeat the right ones.

    I thank all of you for your comments.
  • ralral Posts: 1,718 Mega Baller
    1) Pull out is good and should not need any changes, but way too early. Because of this, instead of turning free of the boat the turn is done with the boat, at a slower speed. In the video, the slowing down and position losing against the boat is easy to appreciate

    2) Partly because of 1), instead of turning the ski and grabbing the handle, the handle is grabbed first and the ski turns afterwards. Please notice the body position and ski angle on the first picture, when Bud is getting back to the handle compared to a picture of me doing the same thing. Oops, typo. A picture of Jason McC, doing it... Life is tough... Also, by looking at the rope, you can see that Jas is higher up on the boat, although his rope is longer.



    3) Result: if you compare pullout to 1 in the video to 2 to 3 and 4 to 5, you will see that the ski goes flat to 1 and changes edge near the buoy. Not like this in the other 2, where the change is early even though Bud is late

    So, what I would do? Pull out later. Keep balanced over the ski before turning. If you feel that you are going too fast, think about controlling the line by putting your arm in front of you with a corresponding shoulder rotation. Then, go for it, without being afraid of the speed, by turning the ski, getting into position BEFORE grabbing the handle. As in a turn.

    I guess it is easier to think about it and explain with a handle than writing it...
    Rodrigo Andai
  • ralral Posts: 1,718 Mega Baller
    edited April 2011
    Also, for the record, If I was you I would be VERY happy and proud of being able run 38, regardless of gate, PP, etc...
    Rodrigo Andai
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,077
    If you stop the video when you put your left hand back on the handle, the ski is pointed at the windshield of the boat. Now stop the video at 2 and 4 when you get back on the handle. The ski is pointed behind the boat. Why? I think that's a direct result of what RAL is saying. You pull out early, match the speed of the boat, and then start falling back in the glide. When you do that, you can't effectively rotate the ski underneath you and the rope when you turn in because it's sucked down in the water.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Bud Man. Nice skiing. I agree completely with your sentiment. When I get to 38 what I have found is that "sticking with it" means staying relaxed. In years past, when I got late at 38 I would nail the boat harder and stick with the pull longer, thinking that I would get early again. NOT! In the last two years, I have focused on just staying light, getting my angle out of the turn no matter what, and then getting off the lean early, just like I would if I was wide and early skiing at 35 or 32. My success in running 38 went up dramatically upon this realization. When I watch your video I see that as the most important piece. You hook up, establish angle and speed, then get off of it and let your ski glide outbound. Thanks for posting.
    Jim Ross
  • Bud ManBud Man Posts: 254
    @ral, That sounds like good advice. I appreciate it and I think all of us can be helped with it.

    Let me make sure what I need to do because my brain is not what I would like it to be sometimes.

    Pull out same but a slit second latter. Then turn the ski in before I start drifting back to the wakes.

    I have tried pulling out at a lot of different places, but lately it has been when the boat enters the 55s. Parris seems to go sooner and Rossi seems to go later. Of course they are both at 58kph. Parrish seems to hang out there which I like, because I like to gain a little composure. Rossi looks to me like his out and back in is one motion and when I try it that way, I feel rushed.

    Again, I thank all of you for your help.

    I’m going to hit the water now with your advice and ski my second round in the April virtual tournament. I just got butterflies as I typed this sentence. I can see the wind looking weird across the pond in front of the house. It seems to be swirling and gusting in different directions. I will focus on me and not the wind though.
  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 1,035 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Have you ever messed with a true one handed gate? I'm not saying its for every one, but it might be a good exercise for you to help you learn how late you can pull out and still make the gates as well as how far up on the boat you can get while still getting a nice gate. I'm amazed that you can run that pass starting that narrow! Nice skiing!
  • Bud ManBud Man Posts: 254
    OK, I just skied my second round in the April virtual tournament, so I did have butterflies, but I tried to pull out latter and turn the ski in better. I have not watched the video yet, but it felt better. I very much appreciate the help. I only got 4 @ 11.25m but after that I ran a second 12m and then several 13m and enjoyed the set immensely. I think it was my best set since taking off the baggy dry suit a week ago. I credit it to the help I am receiving.

    @Steve, In the past, I generally I have not focused a lot on the gate. I believe the gate is very important, and I believe a great gate can set you up for a great tempo and path throughout the course. With that said, there are some things that I am doing wrong and even if I lucked up and got a perfect gate, my faults cold totally botch the rest of the pass, therefore I try to prioritize my focus points because of my limited thinking ability.

    I absolutely am going to try to incorporate these suggestions and changes in my gates.

    Thank you again ral and everyone.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,185 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I can't get you thru 38 any better than you are...but will confirm the baggy dry is like an anchor w/r/t drag. I wear a hybrid, but end of last fall it was really cold and put on my old baggy on a PP classic boat. 30 lbs more to get accurate times, and if I released early the brakes were on something fierce.
    As for 38, I'm reading these tips as well...would love to be more consistent there.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 1,035 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    You're skiing awesome! I just think that if you focused on your gate a little more you would have more time in the pass to work on what you're working on. I've never run 38 but have seen it and 39 run alot! The thing that I see that is consistent with skiers that run those passes is that they start higher on the boat which seems to put them into a nice rhythm for the pass right from the start. I hope this helps!
  • Bud ManBud Man Posts: 254
    Thank you Steve, If I under stand you, basically you are saying that if I don’t get a good start, I never will have time to think and will be playing catch-up the whole time until I go into the drink. But, with a good start I will have that valuable time before #1 and every buoy thereafter to think and work on the other things I am doing wrong. You have good advice and I appreciate it.

    Looks like rain here all day, but next time on the water, I will try to get wider before the gates and of course like ral said, delay the start of my pull out a bit.
  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 1,035 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Yup, that's correct Bud! If you give yourself some room, before too long you'll be working on your 39 pass. I think you have the skills to crush 39!
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,127

    Hope your surviving all the storms coming through your area Sat......ED
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 406 Baller
    At the suggestion of a former world record holder who skis with us on occasion, we added a zero buoy at the same distance from the gate as a regular turn buoy length wise and the same width. Entering the course it is on the 2/4 side. Go around it when turning in for the gate. At first, out of my peripheral vision and before I turned for the gate, I would swear that I was so late and down course that it would be physically impossible to make the gate. It wasn't. At first, I would turn too hard and load too much too early because the late alarm was going off in my head. After a while, my brain accepted the fact that it was doable and that I was not late and let me slow the turn back down to a nice light line crave that built into more angle than I had ever had before. The edge change was downright crisp and explosive. By 38, it would be tough to stay outside the zero buoy and at that length don't worry about it. But do use the zero buoy for a measure of how far to go down course on the turn in. You may ultimately decide that it is too much and you can back off. However, you will learn a lot about how late you can pull out and turn in and the added angle through the gate that you can achieve by doing this. Also, having the fixed zero buoy imposed some precision on both the pull out and turn in that would be missing if you tried this without the zero buoy.
  • Bud ManBud Man Posts: 254
    @ktm300, That is a great suggestion. I put a zero buoy and extra gates before #2 and #3 just at one end. They really show what is going on, but by not having them at both ends I don’t become dependent on them with each pass. I have never gone around it though. Here are some videos with the zero buoy and extra gates.

  • skiing2heavenskiing2heaven Posts: 78 Baller
    edited May 2011
    Hey Bud, great skiing as always. You should be running 39. I just recently watched your 39off video that you have posted and you really drift back before your turn in for your gates in that video also.

    Remember,...How to ski efficient and with zo

    - no flat spots and no flat skiing. no Z skiing This starts at your pullout for your gates.
    -you must attempt to ski an " S" path, including the pullout and turn in for the gates
    -pulling out when the nose of the boat is at the 55 is too early for you, while watching your video
    -Bud, your too slow and too flat before turning in,
    -before you turn in, your ski speed is slowing as the boat is speeding up which equals excess load as you attempt your turn in, Zo will eat you up with this maneuvre.
    -your ski speed turning in, needs to be matching the speed of the boat to delay the load until you get closer to the wakes.
    -this slow ski speed also causes the inability to get your ski fully turned in for the gates with the correct cross course angle. because of this, you are now skiing narrow and flat cross course and you will carry this through the entire course. now you are skiing flat into 1 ball, perpetuating the same problem all the way through the course

    -try pulling out when the 55's are at the rear of the boat with more an explosive pull out. A more explosive pull out will give you better angle and speed outbound, and will help you to have a better edge change.
    -you will then have enough ski speed to match the speed of the boat as you are turning in for the gates. This means you will be picking up the boat and load later. Remember, just keep turning all the way to the wakes.
    - You should attempt to pull out, turn, and back in again for the gates with no flat skiing and no Z skiing.
    -you then will be invisible to ZO until you are closer to the wakes.
    -I don't like the way that ski is finishing at the end of the turn for you. It is super stiff! It may not be the right fit!
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Gates are everything for establishing your width, speed and rythm. Two springs ago 4 of us went to ski with Jodi Fisher in Orlando (I had skied with him before). I told him that my goal was to get consistent at 38 off. For two days the only thing we worked on was the gate, and the only thing he coached was the gate. This was a frustration to at least one of the guys in my party, who expected to get advice on more things. Jodi's response was simple: "my goal is to fix one thing that can impact or fix a bunch of other things". The start is just such a fix.
    Jim Ross
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    I think you got a bit of fade on the 38 gate but overall I like your gate approach and I would not change it up, just work on the fade back prior to turn in. By pulling out early and keeping with the speed of the boat, it gives you time to think and you wont rush things. I pull out when the nose of the boat is 5-8 feet in front of the 55s. Progressive outbound and then a progressive pull towards 1 ball.
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    I agree with MS . . . oops, there I did it again! (hope that doesn't get me banned). I like to turn in at boat speed. The more speed I turn in with, the less speed I have to generate in the lean. But I do pull out about the same time as MS and try to be progressive both out and back in.
    Jim Ross
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    I used to do the Marcus B gates but it was to risky. If you go late you are toast. A big thanks to D Miller who put me on the right track last summer.
  • thompjsthompjs Posts: 537 Solid Baller
    Distance to zero buoy: If you read about where skiers actually cross down course after 1 or 2 you'll find the zero bouy needs to be moved back a bit.
    It should be about 18m from the entrance gates. 27m + 18m = 45m. vs. 41m from 1 ball gates.

    What I've found is that I go way around it at 22off, just past it at 28, right on or behind it at 32.

    If you are going to experiment with this for shorter lines you might move it in from the 2, 4, 6 line for 32off and shorter, depending on your style you may run over it.
  • skiing2heavenskiing2heaven Posts: 78 Baller
    edited May 2011
    Hey Bud, If your on Rossi's ski, and attempting to ski Rossi's line path, with Rossi's type of skiing style, then please try Rossi's gates. It only makes sense. Rossi's gates are by no means rushed, and you could master them easily. This would put you on the LINE/PATH that the STRADA was designed for.

    Dave Millers style is much different than yours also he approaches the course with a different point of view. Dave rolls in very slowly and controls his speed by his knee bend, and compression. That's not your style of skiing. The same goes for Parrish. Parrish skis a slightly wider line than you are attempting to ski.

    With Rossi's gate, your turn in point of course would remain the same, (the 1 ball is just past the left hand gate buoy like Rossi), but you would be carrying a bit more speed through your turn for the gates and picking up the load/pull a bit later.

    Remember to think about turning all the way to the 2nd wake and NO PULLING/LEANINIG/ and just hold your position. If you lean or add anything to your lean at 39, that will kill the pass. Your best gate and 1 ball at 39off will be the one when you say to yourself "I am not going to make it around 1 ball"! That will be when you will have the slowest and best 1 ball ever!!! Less is more at 39off. Its all about being on the right line with the lowest amount of load possible. When your loading right at the turn in, because your slowing and the boat is speeding, ZO will pick up on that, and your done.

    Once your on the right line at 39off, you will feel as though your going 32 mph and you will immediately think that the speed is wrong or the driver is swerving, because it is so slow from buoy to buoy! All your attempting to do is just get your boot over the buoy, and allow the ski to just keeping turning to the 2nd wake.

    Also at 39 off your going to have to pull out a bit later anyway than at 38. This is because the line is so short that you get up on the boat much more quickly and easily, than at 38. Because of this, you will get out there too soon and start drifting back. The tempo out and back in is much different at 39.

    What ever you need to do to stop drifting back, do it. You can get away with the drifting back with PP but with ZO, it will catch up with you at 38 and 39. Just my 2 cents!!! :)
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,204 Mega Baller
    edited May 2011
    skiing 2 heaven - where do you ski and what's your average score ? Not to be nosey, but it's nice to know the level of skier who's coaching. Your username/contact info gives us no indication of who you are.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
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