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T$ on front page

HortonHorton Posts: 27,871 Administrator
edited April 2011 in Technique & Theory
Hope everyone reads what Trent wrote on front page.

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Comments

  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,555 Crazy Baller
    Good read, saw it this morning (I actually bookmarked the front page and come in here after looking at anything that interests me there).
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,871 Administrator
    ya know ...... . . the grey/white tabs (links) across the top of the page link the front page to the forum & back..... . . plus promo boats & links and videos & swag & stuffff

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

  • kstateskierkstateskier Posts: 524 Solid Baller
    i really enjoyed that article... My skiing partner always talks about being "stacked" and I think its a great way to describe how to ski in a powerful position behind the boat.
    KStateSkier
    Bradley Beach - Lone Rock Ski Club, Missouri
    2004 Malibu Response LXI, 2014 D3 Helix 66"
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,118
    And all this time, I learned on this forum, that "stacked" was the term used for the girls Shane dates?
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,061
    It has dual meaning, Ed.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,118
    Shane, I think I like your version best !!!!
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 987 Mega Baller
    I read it, and I'm confused by what he said even though I think I know what he means.

    The photo is a good example of why his words are confusing to me. In the photo he is most definitely stacked (ankles, hips and shoulders in line) and he is leaning (not vertical relative to the water) and the handle is near his hips.

    " To have your handle low in relation to your body, you must simply have your hips high to the handle"

    I'm confused because no matter how much you might want to get the handle low relative to your body it's nearly impossible to do unless your your shoulders are low relative to your hips. In other words if you're not holding a good edge behind the boat then your body will be more vertical than horizontal and in that position you limit how close the handle can get to your hips. You can be stacked, but you won't get the handle near your hips.

    So isn't the orientation of your body relative to the water surface a necessary first step to getting the handle low in relation to your body?
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,770 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    ski6
    I think the main thrust of Trent's presentation was to have people think of getting the handle "relatively" low by getting the rest of their body "relatively" higher. You frequently see people skiing in a very low squatty position. I believe this is often in a attempt to follow the old "bend your knees" instructions. By getting taller the handle should drop and put them in a much more solid position. (Buy the way, I have spent years trying to un-squat myself)

    Even though I have spent a lot of effort to get taller on the ski, I have had a problem getting the handle down. I didn't realize this until watching some video of CP on his gates. As a lefty with a 2 handed gate I watch him a lot. When comparing my position with his I noticed my elbows were more bent and at chest level, where his were more extended and the handle seemed below the level of his vest.

    This finally gets to your question. I feel that by starting at the gates (standing vertical) with my handle in a lower position I am able to maintain it lower in the lean. This seems to not only be on the gate lean, but throughout the pass. I agree that standing vertical with the handle low going across course would not be very effective, but getting it low before starting seems to be helping me.
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,041
    I find that if before my pull out for the gates, I squeeze my shoulder blades, stick my chest out, pull my elbows in and down to my sides, and push the handle low to my belly button I get that more consistent start and the pull comes from that lower anchor point. It is just a matter of holding that position as you sink away from the boat for the pull out. Then it tends to stick with me through the pass. If I get lazy at the start; it seems to follow my through the pass.
    Bob Grizzi
  • bmiller3536bmiller3536 Posts: 298 Baller
    'So isn't the orientation of your body relative to the water surface a necessary first step to getting the handle low in relation to your body? '

    No, because you can get your body position relatively low to the water without having your hips high to the handle. However if your hips are high to the handle your body position will be ideal in relation to the water surface...make sense?
    Brad Miller
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Great article. One of the things that always seemed to help me was after my pull up to think about "skiing tall" before I pulled out for the gates. I couldn't figure out why, but it made me tremendously more efficient, so I just think about skiing tall. This article makes it clear why "skiing tall" works. That one thing can be the difference for me between a day of inconsistent skiing and a day of running 35s and 38s. Simple, but effective -- just the kind of stuff I like.
    Jim Ross
  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 987 Mega Baller
    All of the comments about body position at the pull out and setup for gates I totally agree. It's at this time though that you CAN get the handle low while standing tall (mostly vertical) because there is little or no load on the line. It is possible to push the handle down due to low line tension. And doing this helps to carry this good position into the coarse.

    Behind the boat how high you can get your hips in relation to the handle is mostly a function of how close the elevation of your shoulders is to the elevation of your hips. When skiing standing up straight vertically that elevation difference is a maximum, but in a lean the elevation difference is reduced. This allows your hips to be closer to the handle when tension on the line is very high. Under this high tension with arms straight the only way to get your hips near the handle is to move them up toward the handle. I don't think most people could apply enough force at the handle to move the handle down much when behind the boat.

    I think an implicit part to this very effective technique of getting your hips high to the handle is that you are in a good lean and stacked behind the boat. Otherwise it doesn't seem you can get your hips high enough or the handle low enough to put what Trent says into practice.

    I guess this was the part that confused me. Probably obvious to everyone else.

    Am I over thinking this yet?
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
  • bmiller3536bmiller3536 Posts: 298 Baller
    I think it is one of those chicken and egg arguments, which came first?
    One could argue that raising your hips to the handle causes the nice stacked position and one could argue getting into a stacked position will raise your hips to the handle...wither way GET YOUR HIPS UP
    Brad Miller
  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 987 Mega Baller
    I was thinking chicken and egg also.
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,061
    edited April 2011
    The biomechanics of what we do almost dictate that as you compress your body, you allow your hands to come up higher for balance. For me, I can feel that even if I stand here in my office in a skiing position and then bend my knees or squat my hips. My hands naturally want to unweight and move up. As you stand taller, the body naturally wants to relax the arms and hands allowing them to be lower in relation to the overall body height. This relationship really became apparent to me over the last 5 months while we've been doing Crossfit 3-4 times a week. That opened my eyes to some of the biomechanics of balance that our bodies naturally conform to.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • TuneyTuney Posts: 244 Baller
    I like how the article is simple and easy to follow. Sometimes I think we get a little too caught up in the technical aspect of the sport. Fin numbers etc.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,770 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I agree with Tuney 100%. If your body position, handle control, and timing are all correct you can ride almost any ski with any settings. I have been very guilty of chasing 1/1000's fin moves in an effort to fix a problem with the ski, when later I found that a change in what I was doing made that change irrelevant.

    Having said that, there are skis/settings that I believe fit certain attributes of an individual's style which can make achieving that correct mix of mechanics and timing easier.

    Happy Easter to all you guys BTW!
  • skiing2heavenskiing2heaven Posts: 78 Baller
    edited April 2011
    A video is worth a thousand words (or a thousand ski sets)............

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzMBIVkQDMU

    ....and two videos are worth two thousand words (and maybe 5 trips to a ski school)! lol

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kR_CWB7ovo&feature=related
  • SplasheyeSplasheye Posts: 56 Baller
    Is it just me or is all this just a rewriting of what I was taught 20 years ago when I started skiing.

    Arms Straight
    Shoulders Back
    Knees Bent
    Hips Up

    The skill of a good coach is saying these simple things in a different way to each skier to make them get it
  • skiing2heavenskiing2heaven Posts: 78 Baller
    This is just another case of some "Old Skool" teachings becoming "New Skool" teachings once again!!! ( I think knees slightly bent! If you bend your knees too much then your butt start to trail, and your elbows can easily get seperated from your vest.)
  • SplasheyeSplasheye Posts: 56 Baller
    But if you do all four (keep your hips up after you bend your knees) all is good!!
  • skiing2heavenskiing2heaven Posts: 78 Baller
    edited April 2011
    Yes Splasheye, great point!

    But as you increasingly bend your knees, the harder it becomes to keep your hips up and elbows to the vest. You won't see Parish or Rossi bend there knees too much, just slightly. Rossi states that if you have to bend your knees at the end of the turn, then you have turned into too much angle.

    The taller you stand, the more the hips naturally come forward, allowing your upper body and shoulders to fall away from the boat (that is if your elbows are locked to the vest with your handle low)...........and the more knee bend that you have, more the hips and butt start to trail and the more your shoulders begin to move forward. This position will cause you to "lead with the shoulders" and to get the pull through the shoulders. (if you don't have your elbows locked to the vest)

    If you have your knees bent too far and try to lock your elbows to the vest (or lock your vest to the elbows)
    and you also attempt to get your hips up to the handle, as a result, your putting a lot of uncomfortable torque on the body and ankles as your driving your knees forward to get into this position. This will naturally pull your heels up off of the back of the foot bed and displace more weight on the balls of your feet.

    This weight shift can place more pressure on the front of the ski, forcing more of the front of the ski in the water. This extra friction of more ski riding in the water will slow your acceleration out of the buoy and cross course. Because your acceleration is slower out of the buoy, you then are forced to ski a wider/faster path to get to the next buoy in time. More friction = more drag = more load = more work
  • SplasheyeSplasheye Posts: 56 Baller
    As a jumper I know about the two ways to bend your knees.
    Good way - knee bends in conjunction with ankle - Centre of mass moves forward or at least stays central - you are in a strong position to get lift
    Bad way - lower leg doesn't move - you just sit back - at best you crush at worse.....

    It is hard to get good knee and ankle bend but just because its hard doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
  • skiing2heavenskiing2heaven Posts: 78 Baller
    edited April 2011
    Good points! Jumpers actually cheat at keeping their elbows to the vest!!! Its called a sling! Otherwise they would be recieving more of the pull of the boat through the upper body, and leading more with their shoulders, instead of through their center of mass. This would possibly cause a dangerous Out the Front crash.

    The slalom ski actually turns easier and quicker with less knee bend than with more knee bend. I used to think that the opposite was true. I also used to also think you need to bend your knees in rough water, which isn't true either.

    You really don't gain any huge benefits by excessive knee bend,... and the drawbacks are huge!

    -slower acceleration out of the buoy because of more ski riding in the water, forcing you to ski a wider/faster path
    -easier to overturn the ski
    -easier to have trailing hips
    -easier to have the elbows seperated from the vest
    -easier to recieve the pull of the boat through the shoulders and to "lead with the shoulders"
    -easy to put unnecessary strain on the back
    -the legs fatigue quickly, causing a possible "buckling effect"
    -better chance of an "Out the Front"

    The strength levels that Asher, Jamie, and Brown have to be able to ski with bent knees isn't duplicatable for most skiers. Especially for those who only ski 6 months out of the year.

    I think that "slightly bent" is what Rossi and Parrish recommend and I would have to agree!
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