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West Coast/ new style Misconception

rq0013rq0013 Posts: 567 Solid Baller
edited May 2011 in Technique & Theory
So I have always countered on my onside turn and let my hips/com drop towards the inside of the turn, leaving my shoulders open to the boat quite a bit, leaving my belly button facing down course as my ski tacks cross course. I always heard "slide into the turn"and come back to the handle which is what I did. I just got back from Jodi Fishers, and if you dont dont know, he focuses alot on position and squaring the hips to the ski. He wanted me to point my belly button in the ditrection my ski was traveling along with making a "T" with my shoulders to the ski. This seemed alot like the old stlye of skiing and not like any of the new techniques. However it did help my ski gain more angle than before, so there seems to be a misconception with how new techniques are to be used. He wanted me to counter into the turn and that's it. After the apex he wanted my shoulders closed and belly button with the ski which was very hard for me on my onside wake crossing.
Rob Quetschke

Comments

  • boarditupboarditup Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    Ty Oppenlander, a pro who lived close by to me, has a similar technique. Talking to Rossi last summer, he did not contradict Jodi's advice to me. It works for me.
    Karl DeLooff - Powered by the wind
  • 94009400 Posts: 646 Crazy Baller
    I can hear it now, "it's not a style, it's a technique!"......oh, the WCS guys will be mad at you.
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 822 Crazy Baller
    edited May 2011
    I had the same experience with Jodi - and as I understood his instruction - he does not want you open to the boat when crossing the wake.

    In an effort to get me to square my shoulders to the ski, he would tell me to have my belly button pointed to a "negative degree" (assuming perfectly straight is 0*) in an effort to get me to feel like I'm exaggerating the position in end up doing it correctly.

    I can say that it "worked", but man, it's so different than everything I've been taught up to this point.
    Anthony Warren
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,272
    Some of the best skiers in the world are capable of rotating their hips, belly button square to the ski, during the edge change, while still staying in their lean, shoulders open to the boat. This forms the Reverse C, and is called Spinal Rotation.

    I have worked on this for some time and consider it one of the hardest moves to properly accomplish.

    When done properly, it will really increase outbound direction, resulting in increased angle, into and out of the apex.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,263 Mega Baller
    edited June 2011
    @rq0013 when were you down at Jodi's?

    Jodi's coaching is great coach and skier, easy guy to get along with. Check out the article in the new WaterskiMag about what he is coaching some good stuff there. Jodi is my coach for the summer. I am living with Jodi this summer working with him at his ski school and on his On Location Tour. If any one wants to book a half/full day with Jodi on the road let me know! Slots are going quick!

    Yes it may seem that his style is "closed" to the boat but your shoulders will never be 100% close they will open up due to the nature of how you hold the rope, also from the pull of the boat. His coaching is all about following your ski's direction, standing on it properly. There is more to it than that but those are two of his main objectives in his coaching. There are a few coaches out there that coach this "style" of skiing. Its all about being effective throughout the course.
  • rq0013rq0013 Posts: 567 Solid Baller
    Hey Matt, I was down there a few weeks ago. We had dinner together the night you arrived. Yeah the key concept of keeping the belly button facing with the ski was a new to me after years of trying to stay countered and stay open to the boat. However, as hard as it was, by the last day I was starting to see the benefits and I was getting alot more angle coming into my offside turn. We're planning on coming back next spring again, we learned alot and had a ton of fun.
    Rob Quetschke
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,263 Mega Baller
    @rq0013 Glad to hear you enjoyed it and want to come back! Yeah its a strange feeling at first but really pays off in the end!
  • rq0013rq0013 Posts: 567 Solid Baller

    Mattp
    any update on the madison date? before or after the open?
    Rob Quetschke
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,263 Mega Baller
    @rq0013 ill have to check when I "go to work" in the morning... grab my email off my profile and shoot me a message to remind me to get back to you, bunch of stuff going on here.
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,224
    Even Marcus Brown, who is probably most attributed to using WCS, doesn't really ski WCS as it's become. I think people took that style and metamorphed it into something it wasn't, because they misunderstood the terms being thrown about. I think partially, it's because people have mistaken "shoulders level" for literally meaning to counter and open to the boat with shoulders level to the horizon. This creates a kind of twist in the body, especially on the on side pull. If you freeze frame Marcus, Rossi, Terry behind the boat (those who do ski more new school), they have their hips up, core engaged, handle close to the thigh/hip, and their shoulders really aren't that level in relation to the horizon. What they are not, though, is closed to the boat with a shoulder that's behind and down from the shoulder closest to the boat.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Agree with Ed and Shane. I have skied with Jodi on multiple occasions. His coaching focused on having my hips square to the direction of the ski. As for shoulder "openness" to the boat, the two extremes are the totally open (bad) and the totally closed (shoulders facing straight cross course, also bad). Jodi commented that where he really wanted me was hips square to the direction of the ski, and shoulders maybe quartering in that direction, neither completely open nor completely closed and away. For older skiers like me, getting there is a bit tough as the rotation required in the low and mid back to make this happen isn't that easy when you've ruptured disks and have others that are as thin as a credit card. That being said, I have found that the following Jodi's advice on position on the ski first had a dramatic effect on the efficiency of my skiing, and over time has resulted in a higher buoy count to boot.
    Jim Ross
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,272
    Razor,

    You have hit the nail on the head !!!!!
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 822 Crazy Baller
    I found that I couldn't continue to look at the back of the boat as I was crossing the wake if I wanted to stay square...my hips tend to follow my head.
    Anthony Warren
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,345 Crazy Baller
    rq0013 wrote "...squaring the hips to the ski. He wanted me to point my belly button in the ditrection my ski was traveling along with making a "T" with my shoulders to the ski. This seemed alot like the old stlye of skiing and not like any of the new techniques."

    Completely counter to all of the pro coaching I've gotten the past 5 years or so. Very confusing, that's how I used to ski before I finally started getting coaching. Keeping my belly button facing down course and my shoulders square to the boat (as much as I'm able to do those things), loading the trailing arm etc has made a huge improvement in my skiing and buoy count. Now I'm supposed to go back to doing it the opposite way? Very confusing.

    Ed
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,977 Infinite Pandas
    Quite different than what works for me - if I understand what you're saying. After I hookup, as I approach the wake, I open up to the boat a bit. I try to do this to twist more angle to attack the wake although I'm not sure if I actually improve my angle. The open position seems more comfortable and balanced to me.
    Of course, I start from a rather closed body position left over from my complete inability to make any counterrotation in the turn.
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    I would like to think of it as the counter rotation of hips and shoulders starts right behind the boat and is at its peak just before the turn. Then in the completion of the turn the shoulders are open to the boat while the out side hip is driven to the handle..starting the counter rotate process again.

    Tsixam
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    I believe the point Jodi was making to me was that if you open your shoulders completely to the boat you lose outbound energy because your hips are no longer traveling in the direction of the ski (they open up to the boat too). Keeping your hips heading in the direction of the ski AND having completely open shoulders is an exercise my body can't do -- too much twist. However, keeping my hips square with the direction of the ski and allowing for modest opening of the shoulders (quartering to the direction of the ski) works really well, and I have found generates terrific outbound angle.
    Jim Ross
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,224
    edited June 2011
    That is the point I was trying to make about Terry, Rossi, and Marcus. They aren't completely open to the boat. They are essentially quartered to the boat with their shoulders and chest.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,272
    EXACTLLY CORRECT !!!!!
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    Counter rotation with shoulders at the completion of the turn..Is that not just another way to say, don´t rush the turn?
    Tsixam
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,345 Crazy Baller
    OK, that makes more sense. I don't think it's physicaly possible to get completely open to the boat all the way across the course (not for my old beat up body anyway) but the attempt to do so puts me into more the position Shane is describing. Thanks Ed, Shane, and Razor.
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 1,140 Mega Baller
    A few years ago I remember thinking I needed my hips open to the boat, which is truly impossible to do on your offside pull to the same extent as your onside. No symmetry possible trying that.

    I had a lesson with Jodi at that time and his preaching hips open to the direction the ski is pointing was an eye opener. After I thought about it more it made total sense.
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
  • boarditupboarditup Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    The justification that sold me was this: In slalom, you have to be quiet and economical. If you are moving around on the ski, you lose. Keeping your hips quiet and in line with the ski give you a natural counter-rotation and you are moving far less on the ski while in the turn and out to the hook-up. Moving less means less chance of getting out of position and rhythm - two main components of skiing.
    Karl DeLooff - Powered by the wind
  • Bill GladdingBill Gladding Posts: 109 Baller
    edited June 2011
    Being quiet (moving less on the ski) also allows the ski to move more easily across the water. Twisting, bending, pushing with your legs and other movements affects the trim of the ski and causes drag. Drag causes you to lose speed which you have to recover by going faster. It's all good (you can make 6) as long as you have the time and space to compensate but as you shorten the rope you have to eleminate drag causing movements and maintain proper balance on the ski because your margin for error shrinks not allowing you catch up.
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 822 Crazy Baller
    I would agree with Razor. As I understood Jodi's instruction, staying open to the boat increases your odds of losing your connection and back arm pressure thereby losing your outbound direction. He is also places a big emphasis on keeping a 50/50 weight distribution on the ski.

    Last thought...Jodi was training partners with Andy for many years, so I wonder if this was something that Andy emphasized to him? All things old are new again!
    Anthony Warren
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