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A couple of hardshell questions...

ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 826 Crazy Baller
edited February 2008 in Skis Fins Bindings
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What are the best features for each hardshell system (Reflex, Fogmans, Powershells, FM's)?
</p>
<p>
(I'm not looking for another hardshell vs. rubber debate, just maybe a little better description each model within the hardshell category).
</p>
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Is Reflex only for RTP users? 
</p>
<p>
I see a picture of a double setup on their website, but I've heard that it's not designed for that.
</p>
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Also, are there durability issues with Fogmans?
</p>
Anthony Warren
«1

Comments

  • lkblkb Posts: 629 Baller
    Personally I think the best feature of the Double powershell is simplicity of operation and the ability to try new skis w/o drilling holes in them. I think the durability issue with fogmans is that the plastic part surrounding the spring loaded pin and the "female" block that recieves that pin can wear and get too loose. I swithced to Powershells last fall and have had no problems except the shells themselves have developed cracks. Prior to the powershells, I was on fogmans for 4 1/2 seasons with only one minor injury(even that one may not have happened had it not been for an old injury).
  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 438 Solid Baller
    <p>
    Three years on FM hardshell front with a wileys rear. Great setup for me. It has released every time I thought it should and has never pre released. The wileys rear is tight across my foot but loose around the ankle. Tried to learn to ski a rear hardsell and just could not ski with it. The FM sits flat on the plate. This eliminates or at least greatly reduces movement of the shell. Very solid and reliable connection to the ski. Con: Looks like it was made in his garage.
    </p>
    <p>
    As to other post about Wim, last I skied with him (07) he was riding a black and gold MPD w/ a reflex front and toe loop.
    </p>
  • plubiusplubius Posts: 10 Baller
    I have over ten years of use on my Fogman set up and some wear has occurred in the mentioned areas, however, not loose sufficient to pre-release for that reason. A comfortable hardshell fit is the way to go.
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,438 Mega Baller
    Best feature of double hard shell setup with dual lock is season ending surgery!
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,782 Mega Baller
    @plubius way to resurrect the grave.
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,517 Crazy Baller
    Love my Reflex and hated the HO EXO's. I know you didn't ask about the EXO's but if you want to know more, just ask and I'll tell you my experience with them. I use the thick silver Reflex liner with my Reflex boot and although many don't like it as much as the heat moldable liner, it's very comfortable for me and I still feel like I'm part of the ski. I only wish I had switched to the Reflex sooner. I may give the heat moldable liner a try soon.

    I didn't care how good they perform, I refused to go to Powershells purely because of the dual lock tape and the hassles/constant upkeep it brings with it.
    gator1ForrestGump
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,782 Mega Baller
    What are the best features for each hardshell system (Reflex, Fogmans, Powershells, FM's)?

    I've always viewed this as:
    Reflex - least set up - put the horseshoe on the plate, the release on the plate, bolt the plate to the ski like a binding.

    Fogman - scariest set up - have to drill the release units into the ski in an area where skis don't have inserts. Of course I think this has changed some - does the Connelly system have plates? Or a unified plate?

    Powershells - Lots of adjustment on the plate, release is the most... user liability... of them. When you are selecting and installing dual lock, and then maintaining/skiing, and then attaching your plate back to the ski after a release. You have a lot of things you have to make sure you did right.

    FM - Has a lot of features and a lot of products. Each product has a feature that you may or may not want, like, get along with. I view the lines as:
    Fixed boots on plates
    Fixed boots on plates with elastic cording
    Boots with silvretta releases but different design from reflex - namely the baseplate
    Boots with releasing cuffs.
    2 boots on 1 plate that releases from ski - ala fogman/goode

    2 boots on 2 plates that release together but have your feet separate to move around in the water.

    I think the last is the only really "FM" offering. You can screw a goode plate to a ski, you can bolt a hardshell to a plate. Boots with elastic cording have been since Radar RS-1 era. Silvretta is Reflex - but FM does have a heavier duty shell - and a different attachement mode that may be more robust.

    Boots with releasing cuffs I think is FM specific too - however I think that is similar to the elastic cording concept in functionality.
  • DeanoskiDeanoski Posts: 1,062 Crazy Baller
    reflex fb willey rear loose best set IMO.
    savaiusiniThePantsManCan
  • savaiusinisavaiusini Posts: 423 Water Ski Industry Professional
    I, like @Deanoski, use the reflex in the front and somewhat loose Wiley on the rear...all mounted to the Radar Sequence Plate. Easy to drop this setup on to every ski out there!
    Sam Avaiusini - Operations Manager, HO Sports Company, Snoqualmie, WA
  • slalom frogslalom frog Posts: 108 Baller
    I have used Fluid Motion, Powershells and have been on Reflex for the last 5 or so seasons. One feature that I really like about the Reflex is that when you release, it is just the boot and not a boot with a large plate attached to it. Both my FM and Powershell had a plate attached to the boot and it would sometime dig up my shin or hit the water hard. I did have the release for 2 different 404 releases break on me this season, one on my slalom ski and one on my trick. Neither of the showed any signs of wear. It is my understanding that this has been an issue with the 404 model. Other than this I have not had any issues and absolutely love my Reflex with RTP setup.
    bdougherty
  • epyscsepyscs Posts: 76 Baller
    I skiied FM and Reflex and hitched my cart very firmly to the Reflex product.
    The 404 release FM use has reliability issues on the cross-bar shearing off. The Reflex use the 500 (newer series) release units. I agree with @ktm300 - FM's E-Series certainly looks like something made in a garage. Quality can be hit and miss and it makes for an inconsistent release (was the problem for me).

    On the dual-lock... I have used it and didn't have a problem, but I never trusted it,

    For double boot, I would look at either a Reflex Front and their R-Style rear, or their front but using a Wileys rear rubber boot.
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,292
    edited July 2013
    This is my recommendation and what Andy has to say about it !!!
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
    JohnCox
  • teammalibuteammalibu Posts: 1,097 Mega Baller
    I love my front Reflex and rear Wiley and it seems to be very popular but if you read the Reflex manual it says clearly to never never never use there system with a rear rubber highwrap!
    Mike Erb Cedar Ridge Canton Miss.
    Horton is my hero
  • jcampjcamp Posts: 951 Mega Baller
    @skidawg which hardshell system were you using when you got hurt?
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,438 Mega Baller
    I used a G10 plate that I mounted two reflex hard shells. The release mechanism was dual lock
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,243
    edited July 2013
    Uhhhh, you mean the no-release mechanism was dual lock.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,438 Mega Baller
    I saw Mr. Jones take a pretty nasty ankle breaker saturday at cottonwood (4 ball at 39) with the front reflex-rear R half boot and it released beautifully! Pretty sure he'd be joining me on the IR if he was still on dbl hardshells with dual lock!
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
  • KillerKiller Posts: 454 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    OTF'd yesterday on my RS1s again... not sure I should be proud of that, but it was just a little summersault and blew out of both like butter with the liners still on my feet.
  • jackskijackski Posts: 265 Baller
    Two OTF's this year on double hardshells. Released both times no injuries.
    Jack
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,438 Mega Baller
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 826 Crazy Baller
    edited July 2013
    Well, it's remarkable that this thread has resurrected.

    Since the time of the original post I went from double Wiley's to double Vectors - then got injured that required surgery from an OTF.

    I then spent a short amount of time on double Strada's before moving to my current set-up with front Strada w/ RTP.

    I love the comfort of the Strada's, but I am uncomfortable (especially now that I'm using an RTP) with the fact that I never release from them in a fall.

    @SkiKolb had the same experience (never fully releasing), so both of us are in process of making the change over to Reflex...in fact, just ordered my white cuff Reflex today!
    Anthony Warren
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,815 Mega Baller
    Dawg is right. I would put money on being at the ortho this morning if I was still using dual lock for a release. It was a nasty, fast, tip bite fall and I came away without even any soreness in the ankle. I am on Reflex for life.
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,066 Mega Baller
    edited July 2013
    @ScarletArrow if you are never coming out of the Strada I would say you are pulling them too tight. I pull the bottom tight and the top not that tight. I run a Strada front and an RTP and I come out of mine when necessary.

    If you need to be that tight in the boot I would say the Reflex is the way to go but I think it takes some time to get used to. I ran a set on my Reflex that is on my trick ski and I could never get comfortable on it for my slalom.

    That Mapple video is great and I am going to check my son's release the way Mapple does it.
    Mark Shaffer
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 826 Crazy Baller
    @Chef23

    Mark, I don't think I cinch it down overly tight - certainly not much more than the 40 lbs recommended - but I do like a snug feeling around my ankle joint.

    Any less and it feels loose and sloppy.

    I think it has more to do with the fact that I'm running a size 11 liner inside of a size 10 shell; re - my left foot is a fraction of an inch longer than my right (where I used a 10 liner when I ran doubles) and I have wider foot so I need the extra capacity.

    I typically come out halfway.

    Both Eric (foot) and his son Curtis (tibula) had major bone breaks this spring, so we're all a bit gun shy.
    Anthony Warren
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,066 Mega Baller
    @ScarletArrow I swapped emails with Eric about him and Curtis so I heard about it. My son has been on a Reflex for years and we don't run the release very tight and he stays in and comes out when he should. Matt weighed about 100 pounds when he started on the Reflex and weighs 160 now and we have turned the release up but not a ton. I haven't run Andy's test on it yet to see how easy he comes out.
    Mark Shaffer
  • KillerKiller Posts: 454 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    @ScarletArrow I'd argue and others have mentioned it here as well that if you are pulling the recommended 35lbs (not 40 but that is splitting hairs) then even that is FAR too tight. Someone posted a while back that they tested with a pressure gauge how many lbs it took to pull the bungee out of the laces and it was nowhere near 35lbs...

    Ive since replaced the OEM bungee cord wheel lock with a different cord lock that has a more positive "lock" on the bungees and is easier to use.

    Frankly I've found most people who are in RS1/Strada's that complain (as well as most alpine ski boots, of which I've fitted hundreds) are in boots too big and/or just dont fit well into them: similarly with any last based athletic footwear, not every "last" fits every foot. Actually 99% of people have a different sized left to right foot..... But I digress, the laces should merely hold the cuff in, not your foot, that's what the liner and shell are for. I dont think you can go wrong with Reflex, but there is an inherit risk with any binding, I just find the Radar boots are poorly utilized by many skiers. my 2
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    Especially since you are running an RTP you have to have the top cuff loose. I was on the dock this weekend at state and watched my friend put his ski and he had the strada so loose, you could put your fingers between the lace and the tongue and there was no lace displacement. He proceeded to run 28 and get into -32 @36 this dude is insane for being 18. I am on reflex and I stuffed the tip last night, and came out with no pain. I really do like this binding and would suggest it to anyone who's main priorities are saftey comfort and maximum control.
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 826 Crazy Baller
    A couple of thoughts...

    My liner really doesn't go into the shell all that easy...I really have to cram it in there...so I don't expect it to come out all that easy either.

    In addition to using a larger liner than shell (for sizing and comfort), I use a Powerstep insole...which is a bit thicker than the Superfeet commonly used.

    I think this is the real reason why I don't eject.

    I really don't think I come anywhere near the 35 - 40 lbs of pressure, it's almost an afterthought when I cinch down the bungee. I would say it's "snug", but not "tight".

    After 2 years I'm still on the original cord so do I don't think I'm stressing it too much from over stretching.

    I feel when the cuff isn't snug against my ankle I lose lateral responsiveness.

    I suppose I could get used to it over time.
    Anthony Warren
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    I would guess that in a fall with enough force you should come out of it all the way even with a size to big liner.
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,782 Mega Baller
    @scarletarrow - is the liner formable? If so almost all of them tend to shrink in length/width but "plump up" when heated.

    You can "pull" the volume out of the liner during forming. Get some extra heavy tube socks, get your foot beds, put on your socks, heat the liner, and pull it to stretch the toe box thinner and then pop into the boot. FM should have a video of this process - but so long as you can heat it up in your oven (double layer cookie sheet ~200F till soft) Then you should be able to pull that bulk up above the ankle.
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