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Learn the course at normal or slow boat speed?

ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 766 Crazy Baller
edited May 2007 in Skis Fins Bindings
A question was posed on the 15off forum wether or not to learn the course at a more normal boat speed (30 - 34 mph) or at a slower boat speed (26-28).


One argument says that skis aren't designed to work at that speed, so form could suffer...the other argument says excessive speed hurts form.


So, if someone is learning the course (15 - 22off) should they a) buy a top end ski, and b) should they ski at a slower speed until they can complete the pass?


I currently ski on an '06 O'Brien Evidence - which I purchased not knowing it would get a good reveiw in the recreational review.


However, my buddy managed to pick up an '06 Monza for dirt cheap (now sitting in my basement) and is trying to persuade me to make a change.


I'm currently 15off at 28mph and my response to him is that my form is the issue - not the ski.


What say you?


[edit] - sorry if this belongs in technique and theory category
Anthony Warren

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,357 Administrator
    I say you stay on the lower end ski and at slower speeds until you are running back to back passes with good form at 28 to 32 mph. The focus should be in form over balls. A Monza is a fine ski for Wade Cox but for you the O'Brien Evidence is the best choice.

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  • DekeDeke Posts: 363 Baller
    I've lurked on this forum for a long time as a course novice. At the risk of being totally flamed out on my first post, I am going to comment on this.

    I agree that slower is best for learning the course... But a low end ski? If you have any "sliding sports" background at all you will feel a positive difference with a high end ski. Whether it helps or not, maybe that's the question. I really don't think it will hurt. John, when was the last time you tried to run the course at 15 off?... at 28mph?... on a lower end ski? It's definately all about form but the lower end ski is not going to help you progress any faster. If you've got a good ski, use it!

    Here's a better question... If you want to learn shortline (eventually), should you bother with 15 or 22 off? Or should you start very slow at 28 off? :-)

    Deke
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,357 Administrator
    edited May 2007
    First of all as you know there is no Flaming alowed here. Welcome to BallOfSpray.


    My stand is that a wider & more stable ski is training wheels. A Monza wants to roll over get Mach 10. That could really slow down a skiers progress. While learning the course stability is your friend. You would not put a beginning race car driver in a F1 car.


    Finding the right low end or mid range ski could be as much of a problem as finding the right high end ski for a guy like me. A good mid range ski is not just a cheap version of the high end ski but is designed for skiing at a lower level. The ski that Scarlet has comes from an old KD mold and is a consistent mid range ski.


    In the end there are no rules. I am sure there is someone who learned to ski on a 9800 and it worked great. Scarlet may find the Monza better but I would bet against it.


    Have I skied at long rope / 28 MPH? I skied on each ski at 28 to 32 mph and ran the course on almost every ski tested at the Rec Test.  http://www.waterskitests.com/2007/RecTest/Intro.htm You asked :-)


     


    me at 32 mph (I think)

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,357 Administrator
    Deke said "If you want to learn shortline (eventually), should you bother with 15 or 22 off? Or should you start very slow at 28 off? "


    That is an intersting question. I think 15 off is the place to learn the basics and get settled. If someone could sell me that this is wrong I am listening.

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  • LeonJonesLeonJones Posts: 3
    Beginner speed question/delima:


    I'm also learning the course. About half of the time I can run it when all the stars line up just so, but the other half, it looks like I've never been on a ski. I'm on a  68" KD CR7. I'm 5'11" and 190#.


    My question is this: With this ski and my weight, is 28-30mph still beneficial? I've skiied as slow as 28, but the ski just plows and wallows around, and is nearly impossible to maintain proper body position. At 30-32 mph it smooths out, but I lose the benefit of the slower speed. Assuming I stay with this ski (wife would kill me if I said I needed yet another ski) , what suggestions are there?


     
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,357 Administrator
    I am going to have to see photos of your wife to know what you should do. I don't know. Maybe what you need is a loaner ski for a month so you can learn to run back to back passes. You are at that point where what you need to do is just run
    a lot of balls. That ski is not best for super slow skiing. Yea that is a dilemma.
    You really need a different ski. Sorry dude.


    On the bright side the CR7 is really good things like:
    prying your boat off the rocks, fence post, making a ramp to get our motorcycle
    in the back of the truck or  battling
    space aliens.


     

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  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,538 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    I enjoy disagreeing with Horton.


    Lots of the college kids here use the CR7 at slower speeds with acceptable results. You might learn faster on another ski but spend the money on water time instead. Make sure you don't have a wing installed.


    I will agree that 15 off is the best length to start with at any speed. But I see a lot of young skiers starting at 28 off 34mph and going to 36 as their second pass. I'm not sure it helps them but slow deep shortline is not an uncommon training technique.


    Eric
    [Deleted User]
  • LeonJonesLeonJones Posts: 3
     


    If I stay with the CR7, I assume the way to go is to ski as slow as possible, but not so slow that the ski plows. This seems to be about 30MPH. Is this a correct assumption?
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,538 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    I started skiing the course on a 64" ski at 26mph (165 pounds). If the ski is plowing your weight is too far back. If you learn to weight the front of the ski more it will help you at all speeds. Maybe move the bindings forward to the stops. 28 is a good starting speed. Plow a little on the opener and enjoy the feel of the ski as you speed up.


    If you aren't making the course, shadow the buoys. Make six turns lined up with the buoys - even if you are so narrow you barely cross the wake. Try to make the turns even - most people go too wide on the good side which makes the bad side turn harder. Learn the rythm by skiing narrow and add a little more kick behind the wake to get around the buoys. And don't look at the buoys.


    Long line works well for little kids going really slowly. Everybody else gets better rythm from 15 off. The geometry of the pull from the boat works against you with long line. I don't start at 15 off anymore for the same reason.


    Eric
    [Deleted User]
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 373 Baller
    We have had good results with a another way to learn to ski the course. We usually tell beginners to skip the gate, turn no.1, ski inside 2, turn 3, ski inside 4, turn 5, ski inside 6 and through the exit gates. When they feel comfortable ,we tell them to ski around 1 and 2, inside 3, turn four, inside 5, turn 6 and through the exit gate. By doing it this way they don´t make so many mistakes when they don´t have the pressure of skiing the whole course, they can add bouys gradually and before they know it they have skied the whole course.


    Tsixam 
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,357 Administrator
    "We usually tell beginners to skip the gate, turn no.1, ski inside 2, turn 3, ski inside 4, turn 5, ski inside 6 and through the exit gates"


    Totally agree. Been doing that since the beginning of time.

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  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,339 Crazy Baller
    Leon,


    I skied CR7's for years so I'm very familiar with the ski, it's definitely a very good ski.  I also work with a lot of novice and beginner couse skiers so I'm also familiar with their issues.  I'm here to tell you that a CR7 ain't a 28 - 30 mph ski.  It's kind of amazing how much it wakes up and really starts to perform when you get it to 34, even from 32.  I agree with Horton on this issue, you really need a ski that is designed for the speeds you're currently going.


     I also have a solution for you.  When I was still on my CR7 and started skiing Wide Ride class at INT tournaments (max speed is 30 mph for wide ride class) I wanted a ski that felt and performed like my CR7 but at a slower speed.  KD made a ski called the Evolution CR that is simply a 1/2" wider CR7.  Same layup, same bevels etc.  The transition from one to the other is minimal (slow skiing does require some slight adjustments from faster skiing but the basics remain the same).  And the Evo will also ski at 34 mph, I've run 22 on it several times just to see how it felt and I know it will go way deeper at 34 just haven't tried it.  Might be worth looking into.


     Of course KD isn't around anymore but Wileys does still have the Evo CR available for $359 with Wiley bindings, and you could probably get it for around $250 blank.  I still ski mine and have run into mid 38 off at 30 mph on it so there is no doubt that it is a performance ski.  If you get one get the red & black CR and not the blue version, the blue is a softer layup and isn't as much a performance ski as the red one.


     Hope this was helpful.


     Ed  
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
    [Deleted User]
  • LeonJonesLeonJones Posts: 3
    Thanks Ed,


    This may be the best option (KD EVO). I tried a friend's HO Burner, and HATED it! I love my CR7, so perhaps the EVO is the way to go. BTW- yesterday I did get [email protected] off, 29.5 MPH, just missed 6 ball by inches. I'm trying to find the slowest speed I can go, without sinking. I think this may be it.


    Thanks everyone!
  • mopowpowmopowpow Posts: 317 Baller
    I agree slowing the boat down & using a wide ride is the way to go.  When I started getting into the course I had a Duval 900 and struggled for 1.5 years, occsionally running the course.  Then I got an HO Burner and this allowed me to slow the boat down more (about 24 mph) and work on my technique.  The only issue is I wish I had switched to a higher-end ski sooner.  I always had trouble with 30 mph on the wide ride until I got my Monza.  
  • mike55mike55 Posts: 86
    edited May 2007
    Just back from Jodi's place. Great coaching by Thomas Asher and a couple sets with Jodi. Still consider myself an aspiring beginner. Wanted some warm water to train and had to have an attitude of submitting to what they wanted me to do in order to advance later. Just a fifteen off skier right now. They made me wait until day three until letting me ski at 34 mph. First thing Jodi did was change my grip and helped me to understand why and what it would do for me later on if I stayed with it. So at 32 we did it for 2 1/2 days straight. Really only about 4 sets as the dock was full of pros. Then Thomas Asher had me ski the last 3 passes of my 4th set at 34 concentrating on consistancy at the gate on not to change anything but focus on bringing my offside hip forward around 2/4/6. Made the last 2 passes at 34 wide and early on a new Nomad RC. Day 4/5 the boat slowed down to 32 as Tom Asher told me it was time for learning a one handed gate. The last three sets of my journey were at 32 until the 1 handed gate looked like a 1 handed gate. It was good to get out of my own way and I enjoyed the trip and my new Nomad RC. The last day was just one set before flying back to the west coast and Jodi was kind enough to mount up a Fisher for me to try. Zoom.


     
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,357 Administrator
    Totally jealous

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  • mopowpowmopowpow Posts: 317 Baller
    Rookie - what did you think about the Fisher compared to the Nomad?
  • mike55mike55 Posts: 86
    edited May 2007
    mopowpow...the Nomad RC is the ski for me. Very similar speed. The Nomad was a little more predictable right away vs the first couple passes on the Fish do to how quick it dropped into turns. Both super quick turners. This Nomad is sooo much better at gettin wide vs  last years Nomad for me. The Fish got just as wide probably because of the speed and it tracks well if that makes sense (holds). One set was not enough time to evaluate the minor/major differences. At my level its coin a toss, or pick a color. To quote a famous poster on this forum, "they both Rock".  Jodi set the 66 up with the distance to the back of my Animal at 29 1/4 (1 hole back). He was running the 68's at 29 3/4. On my Nomad RC I was 1 hole forward of center. Will have to measure what that means in distance when Miami Ski Nautiques sends me a new stick. I think the airline mishandled it. The top was lifted at the tip when I got to Orlando. Henrik and Kim at Miami Ski Nautiques took care of a problem that they did not have to. Awesome folks. Interesting discussion could be had about buying from a retailor vs factory direct...to be fair they are compression molded so Paul from D3 couldn't just slap a new top on and I did not buy it from D3 direct. Would it have made a diff? Probably not...Pretty much my fault. Homeowners wouldn't help, and you know what a struggle the airlines are to get anything done. Kim called me from Miami to see how I was doing with my ski and if it had arrived in time for my trip. Very cool lady. Then she had Henrik her husband call me. All I can say is wow!


     
  • alal Posts: 11
    edited May 2007
    Thank's Horton but the only one that is available is the 67. Do you think it's usefull to try this size and then order the 65? Or, as I will have to take the risk to buy them without testing, would you advise me any other brand and model (Radar Senate, O'Brien Evidence....these are only examples).
  • alal Posts: 11
    I bought the F1x  67 (there were no alteranatives). Let's see how it goes...
  • alal Posts: 11
    Dear Horton


     


    Sorry but I'm a little anxious. Each time I'm going to turn I fall to the inside. Any help you can give. Regards
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 766 Crazy Baller
    edited June 2007
    There is a thread for the Nomad RC.


     Anthony
    Anthony Warren
  • alal Posts: 11
    Thanks Brent. I'll try your sugestion next weekend. Any ideas for the settings of a Connelly F1x ?
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