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No Pre Gates, When to Turn In?

SpartanSkiSpartanSki Posts: 80 Baller
edited July 2011 in Technique & Theory
I realized this weekend that part of my inconsistency in the course is due to where I end up at 1. Our course doesn't have pre-gates so I'm just eye balling my pull-out/turn in. I know I've read in the past about lining up the outside gate ball with the 1 ball or something to that effect (no not coordinates). Just looking for some visual queue for when I should time my turn in for the 1 ball.

Thanks
b

Comments

  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,066 Mega Baller
    Your pull out is what is most affected. I know this doesn't help much but I always did it by feel. Try looking to see if you can get the nose of the boat aligned with something down course like a boat guide or 3 ball.
    Mark Shaffer
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,592 Mega Baller
    Depends on the line length. Start by standing just outside the wake as the boat approaches the course. Pull out (two hand gate assumed) when the right hand gate ball and the 5 ball line up. Pull well up on the boat (get wide). Initiate your turn in when the left gate ball and 1 ball line up. As the rope gets shorter, initiate a little sooner each pass.
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • SpartanSkiSpartanSki Posts: 80 Baller
    Thanks guys. Roger that's exactly what I was looking for and yes 2 handed gate. I'm still at 15 off (32 mph), 22 if things go well but it's pretty common for me to run a full pass at 15 and follow it up with a 1.5 at 15 or even a missed gate. I think it will help put some consistency in my passes if I have a reference point I'm trying to hit.
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,345 Crazy Baller
    Depending on water depth adding some sort of marker to tell you where the 55's would be can be as simple as dropping a cement block with a line and a buoy attached to it. Take a piece of twine etc and measure 180.4 feet (55 meters). Have someone hold one end at the entry gate, measure off and drop your block in line with the left hand gate ball. May not be exact but will give you something better and more consistant to work with. The deeper the water the harder it is to get right but it is doable and it's a cheap, easy fix.

    Ed
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,603 Administrator
    Ed,
    When are we going to set up a 12 ball? 6 is too easy

    For everyone who does not know. Ed = EZ Slalom - If you need 6 balls to ski around Ed will set you up.

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  • SpartanSkiSpartanSki Posts: 80 Baller
    Thanks Ed, problem is we're sitting in roughly 60 feet of water at one end of the course, on top of that we have to pull the buoys every Saturday. I may suck it up and put legit 55's on the mainline at the end of the season, but for now I'll probably continue bad news bears style.

    Ed did hook me up, I have an EZ Slalom course, but it's in my garage and I can't put it up. I live on a lake that joins to another through a small channel. The semi permanent course above is on the other lake. The DNR claims that both lakes classify as 1 body of water and won't grant us a second permit for the EZ course to go on my lake (one course per lake). But you bring up a good point, maybe we'll just put it at the end of the other course and go 12 balls.
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,345 Crazy Baller
    John, I can build anything you want. 12 buoy course - no problem. Don't think it will fit your current lake though. Actually I think adding two more turn balls (legit 8-ball course) would be cool but your lake needs to be 250' or so longer to accomodate.

    We did actually put two courses back-to-back once just for S's & G's, in a small public park lake we ski on regularly. Run the first course, have a few seconds to recover, then pull out for the 2nd course. You can run 6 - 8 passes pretty quickly. A blast to do but too much set up/take down time for most to wanna screw with plus your skiing stamina better be up to snuff.

    Ed
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,592 Mega Baller
    @SpartanSki - you may have to adjust your turn in initiation point a bit as I was thinking 34mph. May have to initiate just a bit later, but the basic concept works from 15 off through 41 off (Ben Favre uses this techique). He told me he pulls out when the right gate lines up with the 5 ball (same as I have been doing since before 55s came into being), stops the pull out when the right gate and 3 ball line up (I don't do this, but it makes sense), and turns in when the left gate ball and 1 ball line up at 28 and then as the line gets shorter, initiates a bit earlier at each pass. I think you can take this concept and adapt to your speed/line length.
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,263 Mega Baller
    I would say get 180 feet of rope and drop a bouy at the end of it on the left side boat path for the skier to see.that's all you really need It's kinda funny that there are portable courses sold without pre gates. It is not a slalom course with out the pre gates so your buying a product that is missing an important componet. It will be next to impossible for a skier to get consistent with out them. My 2cents
  • DekeDeke Posts: 403 Baller
    MattP, portable courses on public lakes, with or without pre-gates are missing another important component that would help a skier get consistent. That would be smooth water or lack of rollers. We all do the best we can with what we've got. Portables can be tough to keep straight in some conditions and adding 360 feet doesn't help.

    Roger's line up suggestions work well for me and I've also dropped in a left side green bouy as both Ed and MattP suggested when time is available and that works too. But time is a factor on public water. That said, if the course is semi-permanent, adding 55's would be worth the effort.
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,263 Mega Baller
    @Deke I skied a portable for a few years with out pre gates then added them on public water. Changed my and everyone's skiing I skied with. Smooth water and lack of rollers is not what makes a skier good look at any of the pro's they train in everything to be ready for anything. Visuals to get set up for the course can be inconstant and tricky to duplicate with pregates the turn is a feeling rather than a visual cue. I consider rollers and some wind tournament water. 9 times out of 10 you will not get good conditions at a tournament.
  • DekeDeke Posts: 403 Baller
    @MattP I'm not saying 55's aren't better. My last line was if you can, do it. It's just that not everyone on public water truly has that option. I'm one of them! My skiing improves drastically with 55's but visual cues can work if 55's are not available.
  • 94009400 Posts: 646 Crazy Baller
    MattP, if you're getting "not good" conditions in 9 out 10 tournaments, you're skiing at some not very good tournament sites.......depending on what you call "not good" conditions.
  • SpartanSkiSpartanSki Posts: 80 Baller
    Well, went out this morning and gave it a try. My first attempt was...bad. I was really early on the turn in and flat out missed the gates by a mile. The problem was I didn't get far enough up on the boat. My next attempt went better and as I got more consistent with how wide I got during the pull out, things started to go better. Ran 15 @ 32mph but 34mph alluded me. Gave a shot at 22 and I honestly felt like timing the gates was easier, didn't get past 3 but maybe next time.

    Thanks again
    b
  • DekeDeke Posts: 403 Baller
    SpartanSki, did you try Roger's 3 ball line up during the pull out?
  • SpartanSkiSpartanSki Posts: 80 Baller
    Not at first. Things started going better on my 3rd or 4th pass and got around 4 so I mentally thought "ok, forget buoy count and just work on technique this next pass". Ran the course, funny how that works. On that pass I did use the 3 ball line up and waited just a little longer on the one ball line up for the turn in.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,592 Mega Baller
    These methods work for some of the best skiers anywhere (Like Ben). They don't even use the 55s (I don't either). The 55s were originally added to the course as a line up aid for the driver. I can understand how any skier might use them for their pull out timing, but I can't for the life of me figure out how they can help with turn in timing...
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,430 Crazy Baller
    If you use them for pull out timing, and time it using the boats position relative to the 55's (gliding gate, not 1 handed), keep in mind that you are in a different position relative to the course as the line shortens (you are closer to the gates at 35 than at 22 with the nose of the boat at the 55's in both instances).
  • RBRB Posts: 67 Baller
    We ski an area a lot like Ed mentioned, two back to back courses. Has always been this way for me. Neither has the 55's. Skied a course with the 55's last weekend. Every pass I was early trying to use them.

    Went back to just watching the boat and ignoring the 55's.
    Skied much better, better gate, better rhythm.

    Guess I'm saying, try timing your pull out/turn in by the boat.
    I could never get used to the line up with 5 ball or 3 ball or whatever, mostly because I have a hard time seeing that far.

    I've just found using the boat is the most consistent method for me as the line shortens.
  • thagerthager Posts: 5,212 Mega Baller
    How do you adjust for the different kinds of boats? Each must be a different distance to the pylon.
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • RBRB Posts: 67 Baller
    For me it's all feel.

    I've tried to type an explanation several times, and keep deleting and retyping.

    All I do is watch the boat. At a certain time, as the boat approaches the gate I pull out, then as it gets closer I turn in.

    For me it's always been about turning in at such a time that I can just nick the inside of the right entrance gate. No matter what length I'm skiing. Guess what I'm saying is the turn in is more important to me than the pull out. This is just for me, I am in no way an expert or anything close.

    This has helped me over the years with this problem...

    "I realized this weekend that part of my inconsistency in the course is due to where I end up at 1."




  • PatMPatM Posts: 803 Crazy Baller
    I do what Roger and Ben Favre do. I live on a lake where heads were exploding when I put in 55s. So I said it was not worth the trouble. The best advise I would give you in addition to pulling out when the right gate lines up with 5 ball is two things: 1. make sure you are starting (and seeing the five ball line up) from the same place (usually in the foam) and 2. make sure your driver is lined up straight with the course very early on. If you don't do these two things the 5 ball will be lining up at different places each time. I use this same method for all my line lengths.
    herkyjerky
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