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Rope length vs Speed

RynoRyno Posts: 252 Baller
edited January 2012 in Technique & Theory
When I first started surfing this site, I was astounded by how many people on this site are running into very short rope lengths (38 off and shorter). It then dawned on me that a fair few of these people are running at 55kph, vice 58.

My question is this; how much harder do you find 58kph vs 55kph? So if you are a regular 55kph skier and your PB is on the 11.25m, have you ever gone back up to 58kph to see how short you can get?

Is this difference in speed worth one shortening or more?
Ryan McGill - South Coast, New South Wales, Australia

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,608 Administrator
    I think that 2 mph is worth about 4 balls for most of us.

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  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    I agree. I've gone back a couple times and have run 35. Haven't tried 38.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,190 Crazy Baller
    Yup, when I was learning -28 at 58 I couldnt get past the 2 ball. I took it to 55 and ran it my first try.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,711 Mega Baller
    I think a lot of us who did not have coaching as youths became far more technically correct skiers once dropping to 34 mph. I'm better now at 36 than I was as a 36 skier. I sometimes wonder if temporary 34 training to work down the line lengths to get short line angles and timing down would help 36 skiers.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 3,172 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    When I aged out of 36, gas was about a buck twenty five a gallon. For whatever reason, my recollection of the biggest difference was the quality of the yard sales. I can still run 28/36, but really have no interest in trying to go any deeper.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    [Deleted User]
  • animalanimal Posts: 96 Baller
    I think it also depends upon the line length. For example, at 22 off, I think 55k is much much easier than 58k. However, I have heard many elite skiers say that at 39 and beyond, there is not as much difference with some preferring 58k as they think that it makes gaining width easier.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,913 Mega Baller
    I think animal's comment is most accurate.

    I personally feel that 36/-32 and 34/-35 are almost the same pass, so for those topping out near to there, I believe the speed difference is just about the full 6 buoys.

    But as you get shorter, the speed doesn't make *quite* as much (relative) difference. For example, I think 34/-38 is a hair harder than 36/-35, and I, too, have heard that for those challenging -41 the speed difference only results in a few buoys' difference in score.

    At the other end, with "plenty" of rope, 36 is waaaay harder than 34. I can remember getting to the point of running 34/-15 nearly every time, and then struggling mightily at 36/-15. Felt like a new sport at that line length.

    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    Canuck44
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Just spit-balling here, but it is possible that at the shortest lines 36 is easier just because the boat gets back ahead of you sooner when you are out at the ball. Considering that at -38 and shorter you get so far up on the boat, having the boat moving ahead of you at a faster rate would seem to allow you to get hooked up quicker and on to the next buoy faster than when the boat is at 34mph. Than and the rest of you math and engineering types can probably flesh that one out better than me!
    Jim Ross
  • animalanimal Posts: 96 Baller
    Could it also be that because you are traveling 2k faster at the balls that your cross course speed out of the turn will likewise be greater?
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,913 Mega Baller
    It's almost impossible to disprove the idea, but I am going to be REAL surprised if 36 mph is ever net easier for any rope length. In general, most forces and accelerations are proportional to the square of the boat speed (this is true of any path, so long as the skier uses the same path at both speeds), and that's going to be real hard to get cancelled out by some other source of "easierness."

    Note that even though the boat is catching up to you faster, your peak speed is some constant factor times the boat speed (varies by path, but constant if using the same path for both speeds), and you therefore must decelerate even more to get back down to the boat speed. So I doubt even that provides any benefit.

    I expect that speed starts to play a pretty minor role in difficulty at some point, but I can't (yet!) believe that 36 is ever actually *easier* than 34.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 6,160 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @Razor & OB,
    I agree that 58K will help run 41 (not by me). You just wonder if any of the top dawgs could run 41 at 58K. I know Miller skied 58k a few years back and did not get it.
    Shut up and ski
    [Deleted User]
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,477 Mega Baller
    Is Andy going to make a full time effort at 55K. It would be fun to see what he could do if he went after it 100%
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,608 Administrator
    Little bird told me he can run 41 up and down that lake at 55k

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  • RynoRyno Posts: 252 Baller
    It makes sense that more of an advantage is to be had when at the longer line lengths.
    I ski on the 14.25m and a 55kph pass feels like you are cheating, because you have so much more time.
    If it were only a 4 ball disadvantage, at my line lengths I'd take that handicap every time.

    Though at the end of the day, I still feel like a failure if I've had to drop the speed back to 55 to make the pass.
    Ryan McGill - South Coast, New South Wales, Australia
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,711 Mega Baller
    I'm 6 balls up...was running thru 35 off sometimes at 36, now run thru 38 sometimes at 34.
    Andy's a machine. I thought I recalled from a Schnitz website post that he once coached down there for a week and the only pass he missed in ANY set was 43.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    @ryno spend more time at 55k. It won't seem slow after a while.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,907 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    OB 11:53AM Flag
    Member
    "How come 41' has been run numerous tines at 58k and NEVER officially at 55k? Hack skiers at 55k?"

    Good question OB. I have 2 answers:

    1. With the exception of Jeff Rodgers, all the others who ran 41 at 58k were "professional" skiers. That's what they did for a living. That's what they did all day long. The should be better than the working stiffs.

    2. Age happens. Running 41 at any speed requires exceptional skill AND physical conditioning. Even for world class athletes, their physical condition over 35 won't be as good as just a few years younger. Every little detail comes into play at that level.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,907 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    OB, I don't think Jeff has repeated running 41 since 1997. He would have been about 30 at the time. I was at Trophy Lakes when he set the record - it was very impressive. And yes, he was in really good shape then.

    Are you asking a question or making a prediction?

    I think Jeff is the most likely to run 41 at 55k. I also think his chances would have been much higher when he was 36 than they are now in his mid 40s.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,608 Administrator
    edited January 2012
    Can Andy run 41? If Andy skied today I bet he did.

    I have thought about writing an opinion article about if Andy, Jeff and ex-pro skiers should be able to ski BigDawg. Is it good for the sport if Andy or Jeff to run the table at the BigDawg? Most people who I have talked about it to think not.

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  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    They have already had ex-pro skiers in the Big Dawg, right? But yea I think Andy and Jeff would do pretty well. I had the pleasure of seeing Jeff ski at one of the October tournaments at Trophy. He ran 39 every time in a pretty fierce tailwind. Quite impressive.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,907 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    Horton, what about Lucky Lowe, Mike Morgan, Ben Favret, Marco Betosini (sp) and Kris LaPoint? There are many other "retired Pros" who play in the Big Dawgs as well. Why is it ok for them to ski the Big Dawgs, but not Andy or Jeff?

    Several of the above have done well in at the BDs, but they were far from "running the table". The competition is fierce and very deep.

    The criteria already laid out is fair (haven't skied a pro tournament within the last 3 years) is objective and reasonable in my mind.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,263 Mega Baller
    edited January 2012
    Seth Stisher runs big dawg these days too. I can understand people not wanting Andy (the best skier this sport has ever seen) or Rogers, LaPoint brothers, ect. to jump down to a division/ league that is all about the amateurs and crush it. I know that the daily dawg skiers put everything they have into the sport and are the ones that are helping keep it alive. These guys deserve their time to shine as "pro" dawgs. They are household names in the waterski community and I consider them pretty much a pro level athlete for their age. They are running line lengths that people around my age dream of running (even though it is at a slower speed) I am a supporter of the "Legends" Division that runs at 35mph/56kph it is a great way for the Pros to step out of the Pro circuit and still compete at a high level with high level skiers and speed without dropping down to 34mph. I would also have the ability for anyone with MM/M4? (old fart speed guys) to bump up and ski at 35mph versus these skiers if they so desired. I think it would be a great way to keep these retired pros on a circuit still gunning for 1st place versus their usual dock crowd from their heyday. I would love to go to a Pro event and see all of todays Pros but also have a group of 5,6? Legends around to talk to and to see ski.

    Big Dawg Rules
    Skiers 35 and older who have not placed in the top 10 in the Open Division of a Pro Slalom Tournament (listed below) in the past 3 years.

    2009 – Moomba Masters, Australia; Masters Water Ski & Wakeboard, Callaway Gardens, GA.;
    Mastercraft Pro Waterski Tour, Catawba, NC; Global Invitational, Grand Rapids, MI; Alizee Cup, France; World Championships, Calgary, Canada;
    Princess Pro-Am, London, UK; Diablo Shores Pro Am, CA.; The Pro Ski Tour by Malibu Boats, Abbotsford, BC.; IWSF World Cup, Putrajaya,
    Malaysia.
    2010 – Moomba Masters, Australia; Masters Water Ski & Wakeboard, Callaway Gardens, GA.; Global Invitational, Michigan; Alizee Cup, France;
    Malibu Open, WI.; Princess Pro-Am, London, UK.; Three Sisters Pro-Am Grand Prix, Wigan, UK.; Ukraine Open 2010, Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine;
    Diablo Shores Pro Am, CA.
    2011 – Moomba Masters, Australia; Masters Water Ski & Wakeboard, Callaway Gardens, GA.; Global Invitational, MI.; Malibu Open, WI.; Princess
    Pro-Am, London, UK.; Diablo Shores Pro-Am, CA.; Katy Ski Jam, Katy, TX.; World Championships, Russia; Sac Town Gold Rush, CA.

    This pretty much includes every major event around the world. Pros that have not placed in the top 10 at any of these and are over 35 are eligible to ski big dawg. How many of todays pros out there do you think actually meet these requirements? If/when I find some free time I will attempt to calculate it.... It would be interesting to know.

    Now thats was a ramble I hope y'all can follow.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,711 Mega Baller
    The Dawgs are awesome. It does seem though that if Andy's goal was Big Dawg titles he could earn more than a few given his typical level of performance today. We can probably agree that a loss on his part would be an upset if he chose to compete, though certainly it's possible given the competition. It also seems that by the rules he is free to compete if he so desires.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • danbirchdanbirch Posts: 301 Baller
    Has Andy ever expressed a desire to ski Big Dawg's?
  • CamCam Posts: 370 Crazy Baller
    In 2008 Andy skied in the European and World Senior championships at 34mph, before the competition the rumour was he was running 41 at leisure on his new Elite ski but in the competition he managed 1 @ 41 for gold at the Worlds and 1/2 @ 41 for silver in the Europeans.

    He did get a lot of criticism from Schnitz for being overweight at the time.
  • wwk87wwk87 Posts: 30 Baller
    @Bruce - Jeff Rodgers matched his record in 2003 at Trophy Lakes and ran [email protected] in a run off in 2004 against JB.

    I think the rules of eligibility for the Big Dawgs do a good job at keeping anyone out who would run the table. Jeff says that 34 mph isn't any easier, and that it takes a lot of adjusting to get used to the slower speed. I also think a 35 MPH division would be a good idea.
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