Shoulders on the pull out, per Rini?

scoke

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Back in March, Rini immediately had me trying to square my shoulders(down course) and load my right arm for the pull out. I have been working on it but was looking at some photos and I sure dont look square to the course but better.
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 What does squaring up on the pull out give the skier as I don't feel like my gate is killing me.
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Director Darwin

One advantage I know of is not allowing the ski to seek an inside edge in your glide.  In order to protect the width on the boat, you need to have the ski either flat or edging out.  If you let you shoulders fall into the boat, the ski will drop to the inside edge before you are ready to commit to the gate shot.  By keeping your shoulders facing downcourse, the ski maintains width and speed in the glide.  Or so I'm told.

Bruce_Butterfield

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<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Hmmmm.<span>  </span>This may not be specific to your question, but I believe in general this may help. <span> </span>It gets back to the perception vs. reality concept, i.e. when we pull across course, we perceive that we are going 90 deg to the course, when in reality we are going diagonally.</font>
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<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">What I think squaring (shoulders always facing downcourse) causes is to help use the hips and knees to move the ski and center of mass, rather than using the shoulders to initiate the movement. <span> </span>Another way this can be described is that the upper body is still and the lower body is doing the work.</font>
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<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">A big key is to focus on simple things that make your body position more efficient or natural.<span>  </span>Thinking about always keeping your shoulders facing downcourse, like a snowskier always having his upper body facing downhill, can key your body into a much more efficient position.<span>  </span>That is one simple thing to focus on instead of thinking of arms in, knees bent, quick edge change, head level, etc, etc. <span> </span>You want a simple key that makes other things fall naturally into place. <span> </span>Focusing on “shoulders square” is one of those very effective simple keys.</font>
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<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Now the reality part.<span>  </span>If you look at the really good snowskiers, their upper body isn’t facing perfectly downhill, even though that’s their goal. <span> </span>For waterskiers, it gets more difficult since we have one foot in front of the other, we will never get the upper body facing perfectly downcourse. <span> </span>The key is that if we attempt, or feel, like the upper body is facing <font face="times new roman,times">downcourse, you will end up with a much more effective body position.</font></font>
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<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"><font face="times new roman,times">Bottom line is to take the photos with a grain of salt and focus on what you are perceiving.</font></font>
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scoke

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Thanks for the info Bruce. Thursday night, going to feel it again if the weather holds.
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 I figured out the photo gallery, allegedly.
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<img src="http://ballofspray.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10129/IMG_3223.jpg" border="0" alt="32 pull out" width="640" height="480" />
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Bruce_Butterfield

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The photo makes it much more clear.  You are dropping your left shoulder on the pullout.  Your goal should be to keep your shoulders as level as possible at all times - but like most everything else, it starts with the pullout.
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Instead of leading with your left shoulder, like in the picture, try to keep your shoulders level and lead with your left hip.  It can be as simple thinking about moving your left hip in the direction you want to go.
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scoke

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There is Wim Decree video on schnitz's site up through 39 where he pulls out only using his hips and it's obvious. He is 5'9"(?)
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 Then there is this video of Parrish, see below. as well as i have other videos/clips of him jamming that left shoulder with his 6'5" frame.
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ok now i am semi confused:
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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvzPNXdAPZA">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvzPNXdAPZA</a>
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Old MS Accout

Just pretend you are sitting down on the crapper with your left cheek.

Bruce_Butterfield

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Its not confusing at all.  If you're very strong and/or very tall, you can get away with less than ideal technique.  Just imagine if Parrish had Wim's technique.
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On the other hand, if you really want expert advise about sitting on the crapper, MS is your man!
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Old MS Accout

I cant even get a break when I give advise.
Scoke,
Do everything Bruce is saying and then just let that cheek down. Get yourself the Edged in water DVD and watch the bit that Marcus has on gates. It helps alot.
Here is another goo read on gates.
http://www.proskicoach.com/articles/keys_to_slalom_gates/keys_to_slalom_gates.pdf

Roger

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Yeah, and you might notice that Chris Rossi's position in photo 2 of his pull out looks almost exactly like Scoke's, his outside shoulder is dropped away from the boat. To me Scoke's position looks ok, his shoulders are square to the pull and the handle is loaded evenly from both arms.
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Not saying Bruce doesn't have a point, the level shoulders does work for some people. Drew Ross and Jamie Beauchesne to name a couple of notables. But others like Chris Rossi and Chris Parrish have just as much success with Scoke's style of pull out. How do you decide which is right or even best??? Seems to me it comes down to what works best for YOU.
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auskier

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the full version of the edged in water marcus instructional is on his site. www.marcusbrown.net/video.html
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rossi is my favorite when it comes to technique. That photo that you are referring to is interesting. im not so sure that image captured a 'normal' pull-out for him at that split second. The best thing it does show IMO is that he continues to move out until he turns in.
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Horton

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Old MS Accout

That is some fine position.

Horton

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That is Rini's dog Chuck. His shoulder rotation is the best. See how relaxed he is? I need to work on that. It is amazing the level of skiers that come to Matt's lake just to get Chuck to watch them ski. I think the school may even change it's name from Matt Rini Ski School to Chuck Rini Ski School. 
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 <img src="http://ballofspray.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSC_3905.JPG" border="0" width="719" height="478" align="top" />
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scoke

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the cute little son of a bugger kept grapping my handle by the loop end and draggin it off! i caught him halfway down to the lake through the sand once.
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 He also was barking at my ski buddy for jumping in the water and disturbing his sleep.
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Old MS Accout

I love the Bad to the Bone coller.

Horton

He stole my Dale Jr 88 hat and ran under Matt's truck. I don't care about your darn handle but never touch my Jr hat!