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"Fake" one handed gate

MarcoMarco Posts: 1,429 Crazy Baller
edited May 2008 in Technique & Theory
<p>
After trying but not really mastering the true one handed gate, I have gone back to my version of a modified one handed gate, which incorporates a glide, similar to a traditional two handed pullout.  I have seen discussions criticizing the "fake" one hander as useless and only a means to look cool (Schnitz!).
</p>
<p>
From my perspective, the one handed glide allows me to get wider (by an arms length) than a traditional two handed pullout, and I find it more natural to keep my shoulders facing down course while I drop my hip in toward the wake at the turn in.  I really don't feel any downside by using this technique vs. the two handed gate.  Given that it is not as dynamic as a true one handed gate, does anyone have opinions on why the "fake" is a bad idea or why a two hander is better? 
</p>

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,100 Administrator
    <p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">If you are not carrying more speed and less line tension back to the wakes I do not know why the old style is not as good. I use a one hand gate and it does give me fits but when I nail it One ball is sick. As bad as my one hand gate is, it is more consistent then my old style gate. </font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">If you look at the video of Karina I posted you will see what some would call a fake one hand. I think she does the “fake” very well.</font>
    </p>
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  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,587 Mega Baller
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">The primary reason for the one handed gate is to carry the skis speed through the turn in, if you're gliding, you’re not doing that.</span>
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">Perhaps you feel you can turn better and maybe you can with one hand on in the glide, didn't seem to make any difference for me.</span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">For Karina, you may notice that just before turn-in, she swings her free arm out and helps rotate in with it (not that much I admit). That may be what you're doing that makes it feel better than 2 hands for you.</span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">The primary downside of the one handed gate (</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">IMO</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">) is one more opportunity to miss the handle.</span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">One other thing is the timing. If I screw up a bit on my initiation point for my pullout, I have plenty of time to either increase the pullout time or decrease (depending on if I started early or late). With the true one handed gate, there seems to be little room for error.</span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">At our tournaments at Okeeheelee we get a wide variety of skiers and gates. I have seen enough different 39off skiers with enough different gates that my advice would be to use the one that works the best for you.</span>
    </p>
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,429 Crazy Baller
    edited May 2008
    <p>
    JTH,
    </p>
    <p>
    I am carrying more speed into the wakes, with less load until I'm behind the boat, than I was able to do with the 2 hander.    The main benifit I feel though is the tendancy to stay open during the drop in.
    </p>
    <p>
    I'm LFF, so I was adding one more offside turn to the course with the one hander.  When it works, it is killer, but I would handicap myself more often than nail it.  I am way more consistant wih the glide.
    </p>
    <p>
    Karina does do a very nice fakie- my version is a little more pronounced.
    </p>
    <p>
    Roger- You are right about one more opportunity to miss the handle, as well as the lack of adjustment time on the pullout.  I think it is the timing issue that put me off the true one hander.  Maybe I should give it some more time before I give up on it.  It is still early in our season.
    </p>
  • SMSM Posts: 529 Crazy Baller
    I do the Fake 1 hander as well and it has a few other benefits. I find that you can compensate for a overly aggressive pull-out by adjusting when you drop your arm. We have a really short setup and this can save some bad gates. Also, I find that with the one handed turn in, I tend to start slow and pull more progressively.
    Time spent on the water is time well spent.
  • Thomas WayneThomas Wayne Posts: 550 New Baller
    <p>
    When you let go with the outside hand and extend you "lengthen the pendulum", which automatically slows your arc speed.  The amount you extend is proportionate to the amount of speed you bleed off, allowing you to adjust your downcourse speed immediately prior to (or even slightly <em>during</em>) turn in.
    </p>
    <p>
    A second benefit of reaching is that you have more ability to adjust for any slack you may encounter due to a late (or overly aggressive) pullout.
    </p>
    <p>
    So, whether or not you are aware of it, some of the "room for error" you're noticing is based on the speed adjustment and slack "absorption" you're getting with your extension.
    </p>
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    <p>
    TW 
    </p>
  • Chuck_DickeyChuck_Dickey Posts: 1,462 Crazy Baller
    Two of the best skiers I've skied with are Chet Raley and Win DeCree. Both do the one handed with a little glide before they turn in. These guys are very consistant at the gates as well as getting deep into 41 off. Chet at 55k and Wim at 58k. In all the times I've been to Chet's he has never missed at 39 off, same goes for Wim.  Chet teaches that it is much more reliable. Also, helps to keep you from fading back in towards the boat. The true one-handed MB gate is much more inconsistant, even Marcus Brown say so.
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,429 Crazy Baller
    At what point do Chet or Wim initiate their pullout?  I have been experimenting with the length of glide, and find it easier to keep the speed with a shorter glide, while still allowing for the adjustment that TW speaks of above.  I have been starting when the 55's are behind the engine cover when I am at 32 (55K) and shorter.  When I wait until the 55's pop up behind the platform, I have minimal adjustment time and more often than not end up hot throught he gates or narrow at 1.
  • JayJay Posts: 64
    <p>
    So according to Rini when My wife and I were at his place a week ago, he was saying the initiation point to your pullout is relevant to the efficiancy of your pullout itself. If you can create the required speed and width starting at the 55's then your good if you can't which Matt says alot are unable to do you have to start earlier. He told the misses that something like less than 10 skiers in the world actually do the one handed gate properly.
    </p>
    <p>
    In regards to the "glide" that most people percieve that is happening it is an initial edge change, spray off the ski will tell the tale. A couple of the pro's that I get to see ski seem to have a little glide but they are actually on the edge , it's just not as drastic as a 2,4 turn to begin with.
    </p>
    <p>
    In regards to Rini, awesome coach! If anyone gets a chance to get schooled by him don't pass it up! 
    </p>
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,429 Crazy Baller
    Good point about the speed and width.  Initially, I was having trouble getting enough width with a later pullout, especially at 35 and 38, but I moved my starting point further outside and it solved the problem.  I used to stand just on the edge of the trough before the pullout, but now I am at the edge of the whitewater.  That allows me to travel less distance with the same intensity, so I can get higher on the boat.  Don't ask why I was standing in the trough to begin with.  Old habit, I guess.
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,343 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Jay is right, Matt is the man.  We'll be there next week Monday - Thursday!
    </p>
    <p>
    Ed
    </p>
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
  • Chuck_DickeyChuck_Dickey Posts: 1,462 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Chet and Wim pull out at the 55's or just as they past. Chet teaches a burst of energy to propel you, a slight hesitation (Glide) to pick your spot and turn in.  Very little time to worry about speed dropping off but definitely not the MB pull out and immediate turn in.
    </p>
    <p>
    What I got from Matt Rini was very similar, burst of energy to propel and shift slightly to the inside edge in order to be ready to drop in towards the gate.
    </p>
    <p>
    I think in both cases the key is to move your hips in the direction you want to go.
    </p>
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,587 Mega Baller
    <p>
    One thing (among many) I really like about Chet is that he teaches what works for "YOU." I had my first (of 4 so far) lessons with Chet last year and I certainly thought he was going to recommend the 1 handed gate since I'm left foot forward. I started by not saying anything at all and neither did he. I just skied my usual opening 28 and let him absorb without pre-thought. He chose to work on my transition across the wakes on my on-side lean.
    </p>
    <p>
    After the set, I asked him about the gate and said I thought he might start with that. He replied that I had one of the better two handed gates he had seen and didn't think I should mess with it at all. I was pleasantly surprised by this. I had altered my gate considerably about a year earlier at the suggestion of Harold Hintringer who I ski with from time to time. He had me pull quite a bit further up on the boat and then stand directly over the front binding and initiate the turn-in from there. He used Chris Parrish as the example to strive for. Harald also uses the one handed gate but thinks I'm doing fine with this change.
    </p>
    <p>
    For the two handed gate skiers here, one thing I notice all the time at our tournaments is the difference between the top skiers and the "club" skiers in terms of the pull out and glide. The top guys/gals pull very far up on the boat. When sitting as rope handler (safety) in the boat, they are well up past the rear bimini strap. Most of the club skiers are well behind it. This is what I have changed in my own skiing and it has really helped me. It allows for a free turn in and maximum angle (which is what I think the properly executed 1 hand gates gets you). Most skiers I try to talk into pulling well up on the boat are afraid they will get extra speed into the one ball. What they actually get is more angle and a better cast-out or out bound direction and an easier seemingly slower one ball. Everyone who who tries it is amazed at the difference.
    </p>
    <p>
    I was in the boat as safety when Andy Mapple tied the then current world record of 1 @ 43 in 2000 at Okeeheelee. At 39, 41, and 43 off, he was as close to 90 degrees from the pylon as you could get. At 43, he actually went in front of the pylon a bit before turning in about equal to it. He was inches from rounding 2 ball...
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,691 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    edited May 2008
    Roger, you nailed the most important part about the gates.  Width is much more important than the differences between using 1 hand or 2.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
  • JackJack Posts: 1
    <p>
    I use a different variation that I emulated from Lee Mershon.  I first tried the text book one handed gate and I could not get it to work.  The variation is to wait until the 55s, pullout and then conduct a two handed turn without a glide and and pull.  What this does is eliminate the glide and allows you to maintain your speed which it the main goal of the one handed gate, but is more consistant for me than the one handed method.  The turn in is quite natural very similar to the drill of running the course at 28 off with two hands on the handle.   This may not be for everyone but for old dogs like myself it is a trick within my capability to learn.
    </p>
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