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Powershell Injury

Double7sDouble7s Posts: 37 Baller
edited July 2012 in Skis Fins Bindings
4 years 4 injurys. Concussion, broke ribs, strained mcl. Unexpected release. The last one makes me a spectator for the rest of the year. Torn Achellies and broke ankle when it did not release.
Done with that binding! What do I put on my nano now?

Comments

  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,021 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Sorry to hear about your injuries, been there. There are lots of binding opinions out there so everyone needs to come to their own conclusions. I personally don't like any single plate setup because I want my front heal to lift no matter what. I run reflex front, animal rear. I think it skis great and I trust the release. It has never pre-released and never not come off when it should have. I also have had no problem with single release. I should have counted at the big dawg but think the majority of skiers ran front reflex, and most of the balance ran power shells. Good luck with your recovery and getting your equipment dialed in
  • GlockGlock Posts: 192 Baller
    I had similar problems when on the powershells. I broke my foot pretty bad 5 years ago in animals, requiring surgery. I got the powershells to help protect my foot and avoid another injury. I had two unexpected releases and two concussions and bruised ribs. I am on Wileys now and couldn't be happier. Those powershells are scary if you ask me.
    Live2ski
  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 4,015 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited July 2012
    Go to http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/2617/revised-dual-lockinter-loc-chart and use the chart with black 3870 to help solve your pre release issues, clear 250 seems more prone to pre releases.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Owner at Still Water Lake Estates
  • ralral Posts: 1,691 Mega Baller
    One of my ski buddies got a torn achilles one month ago with Powershells. I agree with @bishpo8950, single plates put the front heel and achilles at risk in some falls (OTF's with compression).
    Rodrigo Andai
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,743 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Reflex with whatever rear binding you like. I am on the rear 1/2 boot and really like it. Strada's are good as well if you prefer softer, but coming from Powershells you will likely want the Reflex.
  • MSMS Posts: 4,901 Mega Baller
    I witnessed another torn achilles injury this weekend on a skier that had Power Shells with dual lock.
    Too much or not enough tape is always the question that needs to be answered with trial and error.
    Reflex front and rear wiley or 1/2 boot like Mr.Jones would be the best if you want to stay in hard shell set up.
    Shut up and ski
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 368 Baller
    Personally, I don't like two different release systems. What if they don't release at the same time? You will be flopping around with one leg in and a ski that will twist. I'd much rather have both feet/legs together. I'll take an ankle injury over a knee or leg fracture any day. In fact, I'd rather be drilled into the ski and not release than have separate release systems.

    None of them are 100% safe. A friend on mine broke his foot in a rear toe plate.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • markchilcuttmarkchilcutt Posts: 885 Crazy Baller
    knock on wood!!! this is my 4th season on RADAR RS1 boots with no injuries. I try to run them loose enough that the liners release but thats not always the case. i have ran them to tight and not released when i should have but that my fault for running them to tight. Happy to say i have no worries of ever pre releasing. Not sure i could kill it questioning a pre release?
    Ski it if you can!!!!
  • ralral Posts: 1,691 Mega Baller
    edited July 2012
    @clemsondave, I think believing that the same release system on both feet will always release at the same time is not 100% correct, unless it it a plate system, where it really is. I would be more precise, and say during the same fall, as it is almost impossible for both feet to release at the same time.

    As a matter of fact, usually the back foot will always release before the front one. When the front one releases before is when problems arise. This is why the amount of injuries for RTP users is not higher.

    I agree, though, that using something like a loose front D3/Wileys with a tight back Approach might not be a good idea.
    Rodrigo Andai
  • nate93nate93 Posts: 62 Baller
    Fogman's...after destroying my ankle last year I purchased the Fogman system and it is awesome. You can adjust the release tension and I have had no release issues. I ski with 5 guys and we are all on them!
  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 4,015 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Nothing is 100% safe but I love my RS-1 boots that are mounted to a G-10 plate and Dual Locked to the ski. I run my boots tight but the liners still may be able to release out of the shells as a secondary release, my primary release is Dual Lock.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Owner at Still Water Lake Estates
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 368 Baller
    @ral I was referring to using one plate with both feet mounted to it.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • BRYBRY Posts: 578 Crazy Baller
    I have been on PowerShells last year and a half. No issues so far. I am heavy so I just cover the plate with 250. Seems to hold me on really well, no concern for pre-release, if I really pile it though, I come off.
    With any release system there is "trial and error" to find the proper release point.
    Prior to PowerShells skied Reflex/Wiley's and at first had some nasty Reflex pre-release falls finding the right adjustment (started at stock and moved up a half number till it didn't fall off). After that was good for a couple years. Had several falls though where I was out in front but rear foot still half in the Wiley's.
    Every system has it's plus and minus's. Any one plate system risks front foot compression injuries, any two plate system risks one in/one out injuries. Bungies (like Radar's) play the edge of tight enough/too tight no release. It's all about what you are most comfortable with and paying attention to your set up.
  • BRYBRY Posts: 578 Crazy Baller
    To your question "What do I put on my nano now?". Reflex makes bond plates with studs to mount any standard binding (assumabley thiers) to any non-insert ski. http://www.reflexworld.com/2010SITE/web/images/shop/12bondplate2000.jpg
    Chet Raley uses a similar plate bonded to his skis to mount his bindings also. His seems to be aluminum with some sort of goop. No idea where he gets them but might be worth shooting him an e-mail.
    lathompson
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,624 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    edited July 2012
    Powershells are a reasonably safe system overall. If you like double hardshell performance, this system is reasonable.

    The duallock does change with time and temperature. The release can be quite sensitive to the changes. Kirk had lots of prerelease problems with the duallock and we ended up pinning his plate at the ends with a couple of screws added to the duallock (he was using rubber boots for the release).

    Breakaway Gatorade lid washers over an oversized hole at the ends of the plate might work for you to avoid prerelease.

    Erb could also make you an overlength plate - tape farther from the back boot would have better leverage for holding power against the back heel lifting prerelease.

    Kirk uses Radar boots and is quite happy with the performance and safety. I trick with the Gatorade lid release and it works well for me. I badly damaged my foot on Wileys (jumping but only in the 50' range). Plus rubber boots cramp a lot. But they do perform well. My double hardshell slalom boots break in the extremely high energy falls. My rear boot has the top clip replaced with a rubber band for better flexibility and safety. However right now my ankle is sore (but working OK) from a weird fin testing fall. Nothing is going to be perfect.

    Powershells with the right amount and placement of fresh duallock can be as good for safety and performance as anything out there.

    Eric
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,228 Mega Baller
    edited July 2012
    @BRY @Double7s You can get the aluminum plate Chet uses from Miami Ski Nautique:
    miamiskinautiques.com
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • slalom frogslalom frog Posts: 103 Baller
    edited July 2012
    I like a Reflex front with a rear toe plate. Tried Powershells several years ago but had many issues with them releasing when they had no business doing so. You can get hurt with any system but I think that the Reflex is the least likely to cause injury. I did use the Reflex Bond system in the past and it worked very well.
  • taptap Posts: 72 Solid Baller
    It amazes me that the snow ski industry, for the most part, seems to have uniformly settled on a particular binding release system and water skiing seems to keep fumbling around trying to figure out which way to go. It’s even crazier considering that the snow ski industry has already done a good chuck of the work by defining “reasonably safe” criteria for maximum heel lift loads and torsion loads and offered it free to the world. All I can figure is it’s simply the nature of being a much smaller industry therefore far less R&D money to go around and therefore much slower to progress.

    Rubber bindings were great for their day but they really have outlived their evolutionary life span. One of the biggest issues I have with rubber bindings, and the newer hybrid styles, is that they are slow to release. Bones don’t break slowly, when ultimate failure load is reached they break, nice and simple. Bindings should function in the same fashion, only with the release load set reasonably under injury loads.

    I commend Goode for pushing innovation with the dual-lock system, but I’d say it was questionable at best from a “safe” point of view from day one; far too much variability in the materials, the setup, and the end user setting it up. Dual-lock could be a great improvement over rubber (from a safety point of view), but it’s hard to say without any unbiased data, e.g. number of injuries per year per style of release system.

    In my opinion the Reflex system with the Silvretta release, and the few other similar systems out on the market, are far and above the others in regards to safety. The Silvretta release taken straight from the snow ski industry, coincidence… And there’s nothing stopping you from taking your Reflex setup to a snow ski shop and having them perform a heel lift check and comparing it to a DIN chart if you have any concerns on your setting.

    In regards to a single pate vs two separate plates, I once thought it always better to have either both feet in or both feet out. Recently I’ve reconsidered this after giving it some deeper thought inspired by watching a few injuries. A single release plate for both feet (as used in a dual hard shell with dual-lock setup) seems quite foolish. Your right leg couldn’t care less what loads your left leg is seeing, it only cares what loads are on it. Each foot needs the ability to release independently.

    On another note, why have no major binding systems captured a torsion load release case? It would save a lot of knees, and a few ankles, bones, and hips.

    Here’s a random suggestion: request USA Water Ski to mandate the recording of equipment make/model/year for every serious injury that occurs at a sanctioned event. They could then compile that information and release an objective listing of number and type of injuries per each brand/make of binding. Without unbiased data it’s very easy for the masses to be swayed by good marketing and hype.

    P.S. no returns on those Strada’s I sold you a few months back, you know who you are…
    ralToddLBulldogaupatking
  • RCMRCM Posts: 19 Baller
    I hear a lot of good things about the Reflex front boot for RTP users, But I have seen several injuries because when you release from the reflex plate you hit the front shell with your back foot, ankle or leg. am I the only one that is seeing this?
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,108 Mega Baller
    @tap [quote] "Here’s a random suggestion: request USA Water Ski to mandate the recording of equipment make/model/year for every serious injury that occurs at a sanctioned event. They could then compile that information and release an objective listing of number and type of injuries per each brand/make of binding. Without unbiased data it’s very easy for the masses to be swayed by good marketing and hype." [end quote].

    That may be more pragmatic than the boat driver background check to potentially lowering insurance claims.....
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • jipster43jipster43 Posts: 1,402 Crazy Baller
    Wouldn't the propensity of a system failure also have something to do with the number of those systems being used? You'd have to factor that data in as well.
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,624 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    @Tap is comparing snow ski apples to waterski oranges. Waterskiing has such differing binding options that a standard is not appropriate.

    Torsion injuries have been rare events for my skiing. The water is relatively pliable and will give enough to reduce many torsion related loads. It is not a major design issue for my binding designs.

    I also disagree with the idea that both feet in is inherently less safe. I'm stuck in double boots because every time I try to switch back to a toe kick I get tweaked with one in, one out flailing falls.

    The Reflex system has given me multiple prerelease injuries in trick falls. My shins bear the scars. I advise anyone tricking on Reflex to use a soccer shin guard. And I have seen serious injuries from a Reflex prerelease. Finally, the Reflex release numbers change with temperature and age (stiffness) of the shell. Note that I do recommend the Reflex system for tricks - it dominates but is not perfect.

    Publishing tournament injuries may be helpful but seriously, how many of your sets are tournament sets? And do you approach tournaments the same as practice? But all data is useful...

    Eric
  • Alberto SoaresAlberto Soares Posts: 284 Baller
    I skied many years with Goode Double Powershells (PS4 and PS5) - since Goode started selling them. Had some pre-release, but ended finding the right amount of dual lock, never hurt myself skiing about 400 sets a year. It is not like that with everybody, one of my best friends ruptured his back foot aquiles while I was driving him, it took to long to his PS5 release. It is a fact also that the dual lock gets old and you have to replace it at least once a year.

    I got tired of the repairing my PS system and changing the dual lock frequently, so 2 years ago I bought a Reflex front with R-style (half boot) in the back. I love the setup and feel very safe with it. Once in a while when I finish skiing I pull the tip of my ski to release the system in the water and check if the releasing pressure is ok.
    danbirch
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