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probably a dumb question but I'll ask anyway.....!

Live2skiLive2ski Posts: 23 Baller
edited July 2012 in Technique & Theory
Is there anything that you guys concentrate on to stop you overturning at the bouy?

The reason I ask is that when I watch videos of pretty much anyone competent (pro/dawg or just 35off and above) they all seem to finish the turn with exactly the right amount or less ski angle than they need, the angle then being developed in the acceleration phase. This seems to happen even when running late and the turns are forced they come round fast usually taking a hit but the ski is pointing to the boat making the hit managable.

I realise that what I am taking about is possibly "pass scramble mode", but think its worthwhile considering how its done as as a lesser mortal I could do with an insight.

My own particular problem relating to this is that I am enjoying all the right accleration sensations and riding the ski through the turns whilst free skiing (shadowing the bouys) but overturning and taking hits unnecessarily when in the course (this is at 32off), these hits are obviously too close to the bouy which pulls me up and, if I can hold it, results in a drag to the next bouy - pass over. l would love to be able to force the turn a bit when necessary but leave the ski pointing a bit more downcourse at the finish.

Any ideas, or is it just me!

Kevin

Comments

  • OSSKIOSSKI Posts: 73 Baller
    Kevin,

    It is possible that rather than overturning, you are leaning too long after the second wake before your edge change. This would mean at each turn your are exceeding the boat speed, and therefore when you turn in you're 'pushing' on the rope, giving you slack, and a hit from the boat. This seems possibly a more likely explanation than overturning every single buoy, however I could well be wrong.

    If you uploaded some video i'm sure you will get plenty of feedback.

    Owen
    Log sets and chart your progress with the Swervetracker app, at www.swervetracker.com
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,588 Mega Baller
    Totally agree -- problem is almost definitely well before the symptom. Video would be great to diagnose.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • 94009400 Posts: 626 Crazy Baller
    Do you rotate in on the turn? Or do you stare at the buoy as you are turning? Do you reach for the handle as you are turning? Do you rush back to the handle? Do you load too hard, too soon?
  • SMSM Posts: 529 Crazy Baller
    What OSSKI said. Video would really help as Than said.
    Time spent on the water is time well spent.
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    Friend of mine taught me this years ago. If you want to take a little out of your turn, reach higher with the handle after you release. These are the tips that I love. I hate tuning a ski - you are always chasing the perfect setup. I'd rather make minor adjustments in myself and have the ski be predictable. Of course, assuming the settings are in the ballpark.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,186 Crazy Baller
    This is creepy, me and Live2ski have similar names, and I was just at cobles and my problem was overturning at -28 and -32 and the coach told me to exit the buoy with the same amount of angle as I enter it with (sounds like what you are describing)... Basically what you should try is to come in to the buoy, be very patient, when you make your turn if you have to wait for a second for the line to catch up with you just wait. If for .5 seconds you have nothing to do, then you have nothing to do if you try to add a ton of angle to try to stand up (while some people do this naturally) it does not help the way people think it does, just wait for the line to tighten up and it will help alot.
  • ralral Posts: 1,758 Mega Baller
    edited July 2012
    I almost always "finish the turn with exactly the right amount or less ski angle than I need". Less would be the rule for my offside.

    On the other end, though, the part of "angle then being developed in the acceleration phase"...
    Rodrigo Andai
  • Live2skiLive2ski Posts: 23 Baller
    Thanks for the advice, will get hold of some video and post it tomorrow.
    Slightly concerned about having a ski doppelgänger! - wonder if Horton will let me change my tag name to avoid confusion?
  • bogboybogboy Posts: 699 Solid Baller
    One of my instructors really help me by explaining to not only time your glide and turn to kiss the inside of the bouy, but to also use, and trust your fall, with the little slack that you have, then set your angle, and then go! This will help to excellerate, with edge and angle to be wide and early for the next bouy. Did I explain that right?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,791 Administrator
    There are two things here. The energy you put into the turn and the angle you get out.

    A lot of skiers myself included pound the front foot- dive forward and or yank the handle or throw yourself to the inside or whatever. This is too much energy.

    Then there is angle. I want ALL the angle I can get. The hard part is getting the angle and being in a position to deal with it.

    If I put in less energy and do the little things right I get tons of angle that I can deal with.
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,791 Administrator
    @Live2ski if you want to change you name send me an email [email protected]
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

    MattP
  • bogboybogboy Posts: 699 Solid Baller
    Maybe that efficient energy is why some of my full passes seem kind if easy, very difficult, or missed.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,791 Administrator
    @bogboy I think so. I mean you have to be technically on also. I tend to really rotate my shoulders early on Off side => way too much energy. When I keep my free hand off longer and stay calm I get more angle and am able to deal with it. That is also why I like skis that resist a little at the finish.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

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    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    I think the good old ”head up, shoulders square and countered” would help a lot. And of course line control.
    Tsixam
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,097
    @Horton - I like that concept of "energy". That's a really good way to think of it.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,588 Mega Baller
    @ShaneH @Horton That's a good reminder that the same thing needs to be said a lot of different ways to make sense to different skiers. I usually find Horton's advice and experience very useful, but I have no clue what he's talking about with "energy." It's always a challenge to find the verbiage that makes sense to someone, so having as many ways as possible to explain the same thing is great.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,178
    @Live2ski,

    Something that may help you from over-rotating is vision, and where you look. Something I have to work on a lot with only one good eye.

    I start after the transition, while setting up my counter, looking down the buoy line. Key here is keeping the head and shoulders level, with the counter being a straight extension of the rope. Do not stare at the buoy as you will drop your head. You can see it fine looking down course on your way to the apex.

    The hard part is coming off the apex at the start of the turn. You want to keep a rather still upper body, with head and shoulders level through the turn. Keep looking down course. If you turn your head to get a sneak peak of where you will be going, you will drop the inside shoulder and over-rotate.

    Also, if you were setup correctly at the apex, with full extension, countered, head and shoulders level, and looking down course. DO NOT pull in on the handle and rotate the upper body. Rather, slide the hip to the handle while looking down course. This will do THREE major things for you. One: Keep you from over-rotating. TWO: Set you up for a open to the boat leveraged position. Three: Not let ZO know your there, so you can acquire your leveraged position in preparation for the oncoming load.

    Hope this helps somewhat.....Big E.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
    sunvalleylawGaryWilkinson
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    @Ed Johnson, That (the vision stuff) is similar to what Terry Winters advises in his "on the dock" vid lessons in the tech article section. The stuff you mention at the apex has been my bane. I have tended to get there, rotate my upright head so I am looking right across the course, and well . . .

    Good stuff!
  • Live2skiLive2ski Posts: 23 Baller
    Wow some great advice and ideas - many thanks.
    At the risk of opening myself to public scrutiny I have as requested gone and got some video (which is hopefully attached below).
    I have posted a free ski pass to show what I have been working on and then a couple of the more usual 32 off frustration passes.
    By way of explanation a couple of seasons ago my approach to 32 was:
    blast through the wake, jump on the front, take the hit, trawl to the next bouy and repeat. 32 fell most sets but I realised that I would be unlikely to get any further than 35 skiing this way, so a rethink was required. I have this last year been getting some coaching from Seth (one to one and video - which I highly recommend). He has had me working on the acceleration through the wakes - which I hope you can see in the free ski pass.
    Like everyone though I'm keen to take it to the course but the red mist seems to descend and I overturn getting pulled up way too early without getting the chance to actually get into the acceleration phase.
    I haven't talked to Seth about the turns yet and thought it might be an interesting enough topic for sharing on the forum.
    Excuse the dark skies and rain - its what passes for midsummer here!
    Look forward to your views (be gentle!),

    Kevin





  • gregygregy Posts: 2,583 Mega Baller
    edited July 2012
    Looks like to me on your turn to the gate your pulling the handle in with your arms instead of letting your hips ski into the handle causing you to get pulled over and loose your "leveraged" position. Just reading @Than Bogan treatise.

    You do the same at the ball and when you free skied. If the handles up high the boats going to pull you over. Hopefully some of the more experienced people here can give you some more indepth ideas.
  • Live2skiLive2ski Posts: 23 Baller
    Hi Gregy,
    I hadn't noticed that, thanks for the observation.
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,583 Mega Baller
    edited July 2012
    No one's commented on this yet so I'll try to bump it up for you. Your doing very good with just some small changes you should be able to knock out some more bouys.

    To me it all starts right at the setup for the gates. You pull out and once you go into your glide it doesn't look like to me you are in a comfortable position. Push your hips forward and flex the knees and ankles just a bit more. As you initiate you turn to the gates you drop your rear back a little more - Arms in, handle high, Rear back leaving you in a bad body position from the start. Remember, arms straight! Fix this and see where your turn go in my opinion.

    I was just watch a video of @Bmiller3536 on other thread. Notice how conformable he in his glide and when he makes his turn the hips go right to the handle. Links below

    http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/5749/need-coaching-help
  • GaryWilkinsonGaryWilkinson Posts: 342 Solid Baller
    @livetoski, boy I've never met a skier who skis so much, looks so much and has as many as the same problems as I do. Carbon copy I'd say kev, so here goes.
    You have described the same situation as I have that when the ski DOESN'T bite, it's a smoother turn but, you lose angle and go downcourse. When the ski does bite, (over rotate) we are not in a good athletic position to absorb it therefore we bend the waist, absorb it with our upper body, handle blasts out the front door and ski goes flat and downcourse. Barf!

    Take a look the the pictures in the link I posted a while agohttp://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/55050
    My point was that in the preturn, my weight is too far back vs better skiers. This comes from too much speed too late. In the turn then having to 'dunk' the turn, over rotate and bite off more than my body can chew. Sound familiar?

    First observation is that your pull is from your arms, very high and not connected to your hips. I think someone said sliiide your hips to the handle, while keeping your shoulders higher, less closed. What I do to achieve this is drive my knees and ankles while more bent, forward on the ski, that gets my. Shoulders further back and my body more aligned to take the pull of the boat.

    The 2nd thing is that you are not counter rotating enough. (I have to think about this. At every ball!) a little bit of more open shoulders will allow your hips to clear better and you can stand tall on the preturn and gradually, more predictive get more of the ski in the water earlier to prevent the unexpected 'bite' from over rotation.

    Last thing is your free hand needs to stay quieter, by your side, not sweeping forwards and backwards, mine used to go up in the air. Finally got it to settle down by my side keeping my COG better and ready to RECIEVE the handle when your hips sliiiide into place.

    Sorry for the book on your skiing but it's soooo close to mine I have lots of notes and coaching to offer. Keep it going though, because when form all comes together for 6 balls straight, man, what a feeling!

    Here's to getting more of those feelings, more often!
    I need to ski back to the handle obviously.
  • Live2skiLive2ski Posts: 23 Baller
    @gregy and @garywilkinson thanks so much. Totally agree that the gate / glide is where I need to get some continuity (the correct type!)
    Looked at the other thread Gary and yes this is all soooo familiar. Reassuring we are working on the same stuff - wonder how much of the technical shortline stuff really doesnt apply yet?
    Reckon I'm going to keep working at the free skiing - allows me to still work on stuff even if I screw up the turn in.
    Anyway got a break from it all for the next two weeks as summer holidays beckon - 12deg and rain forecast - the uk's endless summer wins again, reckon I'll be in the 5mm wetsuit when I get back :(
  • colo_skiercolo_skier Posts: 784 Solid Baller
    @live2ski were are you skiing at in the UK?
    Not sure I know what I am doing. The boat goes I follow. Trying to perfect the deep water start. Squirrel!
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,583 Mega Baller
    @Live2ski This last spring I only free skiing doing nothing but practiced cutting accross the wake and concentrating on body position. I didn't even worry about turning most of the time, I was just making gate style turn-ins from both sides and thinking about being stacked, handle on the hips etc. Its really paid off in the course this summer. All this internet information and youtube videos are great!
  • Live2skiLive2ski Posts: 23 Baller
    @colo_skier we ski at:
    Dunfermline (ancient capital of Scotland) at "Water Ski Scotland" always a warm welcome for visitors! (although probably raining)
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    @gregy , after thinking about the stuff in Than's article, and seeing some vid, some pulling (position) drills, and linked turn ins from both side of the wake like you did is what I think I need.
  • colo_skiercolo_skier Posts: 784 Solid Baller
    @Live2ski I have been in Scotland a few times but only zooming up the M90 to Lock Ness from Edinburgh in that part of Scotland. That and sipping on a Iron Brew!! I am looking for anyone that belongs to the Cirencester ski club down in Gloustershire in England.
    Not sure I know what I am doing. The boat goes I follow. Trying to perfect the deep water start. Squirrel!
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