Tip Raise

TUPTUP Posts: 17 Baller
edited September 2012 in Technique & Theory
What would help keep my tip down after completing my turn? A friend took some pictures, and I was surprised at how much my tip was coming up at the end of the turn. I have attached the photos and some video.
Skiing on a 2011 Strada
28 1/2 “Front Binding
.765 DFT
6.850 Length
2.495 Depth

http://s829.photobucket.com/albums/zz214/T-UP/Sept skiing/


  • RichRich Posts: 252 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    To me it looks like you get a little more tip rise on the off side. You could add length to the blade. However it appears that you never get in a stacked position when there is a load on you.
    I believe this is about core strength. I would work on getting stronger core muscles with plyo drills, box jumps and other athletic movements,and yoga movements like these. Try adding Bikram Yoga to your offseason this year. Go 4-5 times per week. This will help in standing over your feet on your ski. Good Luck!
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,900 Mega Baller
    @TUP that is some good skiing I am not sure I am worthy to comment. You do look like you ride the tail a little bit coming through the wakes and into the turn which could lead to the tip rise coming out of the turn. Being a little more stacked might help.

    The other thing I have issues with at the shorter line lengths is being impatient while waiting for the boat to pick me up after the turn. Sometimes at the shorter lengths you just need to wait and I have a tendency to step on the tail which obviously causes tip rise.
    Mark Shaffer
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,190
    @Tup, I have to agree that it appears you are too far back on that ski in general. Its noticeable as you cross the wakes and the tip rise in the turns is a result of the same issue. Opening up to the boat a bit at the conclusion of the turn and through the wakes may help center you a bit better over your bindings. This isnt a theoretical west coast style plug, but more of a trick to encourage your center of mass to move out over your bindings a bit. Moving them forward a tiny bit may also help keep the tip down
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
  • markchilcuttmarkchilcutt Posts: 918 Crazy Baller
    edited September 2012
    @tup great skiing man!! You seem very patient and calm at the shorter line lenght. wish i had your patients at 35! Not sure i would change any ski settings but rather work on what @texas6 mentioned above. Watch some vid of the top pros and slow it down freeze frame it etc then look at your body position and compare the two. you should see the diff and have something to work on behind the boat. Great skiing keep it rollin!!
    Ski it if you can!!!!
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    What size Strada is that? That's a LOT of ski out of the water everywhere.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    I don't think your fin is the prime cause of your high tip. " You just seem to be really good at skiing on the back of your ski, and fortunately, Radar has it's flat section further back on the ski than any other ski on the market, so it works.

    It does look like your bindings might be mounted too far back. 28.5" is in the park for a 65" or 66" ski (as measured from the stitching above the sole), but your ski looks bigger than this. It's also possible that your slighly shallow fin setting is causing some of the tip rise at the finish of the turn, but it's not crazy shallow. Mostly, you just seem to be heavy on the tail of your ski everywhere, in the glide, in the turns, and while cutting too ... and you really are good at it.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,190
    edited September 2012
    Well said @SkiJay! @Tup, I should have mentioned you are skiing well at a very high level prior to offering any critique here. The critique is exactly that: being critical. Nice skiing!
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,547 Mega Baller
    edited September 2012
    I'm on a 2011 Strada. Not sure what your setting are. I emailed Matt Rini and told him where I was at with my skiing, ski size, weight etc. He gave me a his recommendation and I've haven't changed from what he gave me and I immediately started skiing better. My ski partner went back to stock settings on his strada and is looking better as well. @ToddL was watching him and thought that he was using the ski settings as a crutch to compensate for poor form. The stock setting are now forcing him to use better body positioning.

    Oh yea, @tup nice skiing, your a few minor adjustments away from really killing it. I think that's been covered above, good luck.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,056 Mega Baller
    @TUP, how are you measuring DFT, head of calipers? I believe all Radar dft numbers are published using the Rossi method, with a slot caliper. This gives you about .030 longer of a measurement, so stock .770 is really .740 with head of regular caliper. Just sayin...
    I had the same problem with my Strada. Moved the fin back and now it comes around out in front of me much better.....
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,359 Mega Baller
    Interesting to watch! I personally have never seen anyone ski that well (or even close) with so much ski out of the water. As ShaneH noted, there's a lot of ski out of the water all the time -- not just tip rise.

    In all honesty, I'd be a little scared to "fix" that. It just seems to be part of your style. I don't really see any big negative consequences associated with it for you. I guess maybe a slight delay at the finish, but I've seen (and done!) much worse.

    But it's unusual enough that it's probably worth experimenting with bindings further forward. Maybe there's some magic there where you could destroy -38 and threaten -39?? (And then another person leaves me in the dust...)

    Also, is that ski the right size? Because of seeing so much ski, it looks way too big. Probably an illusion, though.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,788 Mega Baller
    @tup - In every glide before the gates, we can see daylight under the front binding... Water should be breaking at your front toes, not behind your front heal.

    Recommendation - we spend about 5-10 seconds from deep water to first motion to pull out for the gates. At the end of the pass, we spend about the same skiing behind the boat before setting down. If you have a turn island, you spend about 5-10 second there. All of this time you have nothing really to do but ride the ski. So, this is the perfect time to ride it perfectly. Really think about hips locked forward, a little more front ankle bend, and shifting your weight more to the front foot. Think about forcing the water to break under or just in front of your front foot toes. Also think about standing on the balls of your feet, not the heals. If possible (strada bindings), even lift your heals off the footbeds. Every second you are not chasing buoys, you can spend it thinking about weight distribution on the ski.

    You didn't mention what length Strada (67?)
    Based upon your settings noted above, your front boot need to move forward a bit.

    Here are some recommended settings that I captured from past postings:
    SkiSize Front Boot Fin Length Fin Depth Fin DFT Wing Strada
    66 28 5/8 6.845-6.850 2.505 0.75 9
    67 29 1/2 6.850-6.855 2.505 0.75-0.755 9
    66 28 3/4 2.495 6.84 0.75 9
    67 29 1/2 2.495 6.84 0.77 9
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • TUPTUP Posts: 17 Baller
    Thanks for the input!

    Ski is a 66” I’m about 160 lb.’s
    I’m measuring DFT with the head of the calipers
    Binding placement is measured from the top stitch, I’m ¼" back from factory of 28 ¾”
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,041 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @TUP it appears you would be a killer with more ski in the water. I'm not quite sure how you get cross course the way you do at present other than your light body weight. Heavier skiers would not advance with that much ski in the air. Agree with @than that if you get more ski in the water you will make the purple pay with regularity...and that's cool. Good luck!
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • MSMS Posts: 5,164 Mega Baller
    Move the DFT to .752
    I rode my 66 strada there with 2.503 on the depth. Length looks good.
    Shut up and ski
  • TUPTUP Posts: 17 Baller
    MS, I’m using the head of the calipers for my DFT measurement. Is your .752 with a slot calipers are head of calipers? As AB mentioned, Radar does measure DFT with slot calipers. Subtract .30 from my measurement?

    I'm going to move my bindings to 28 3/4" with a real focus on weight transfer forward.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    Rossi has told me before that he's using the head of the caliper, not with a slot caliper. Now that was in 2010, so he might have changed. But the published Rossi numbers haven't changed since that time.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,056 Mega Baller
    If you watch Rossi's video on how to setup a Strada, he uses a slot caliper and is shooting for .767 or thereabouts. That means .737 or .740 with head. I have a 69.5 Strada and tried for too long to run the dft as advertised, and I was just chasing my tail. Watched the video and the light bulb went off when I saw him using slot caliper. Used the Goode website which lists both measures, and there is a .030 difference on their website, so I moved the fin back and viola, major improvement. I had moved it back on my own a few times, liked it, then kept coming back to stock to see if it was me or the ski... (should never question yourself). But its been that kind of a year. Right now, I am feeling much better about the ski and me and harmony...
  • TUPTUP Posts: 17 Baller
    This is where i got slot caliper from

  • JC McCavitJC McCavit Posts: 494
    edited September 2012
    Moved to new post.
    JC McCavit
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    Well, I was wrong. But like I said, that was a few years ago.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • skiboynyskiboyny Posts: 202 Baller
    You seem in the habit of keeping your front leg straight. That would fix the attitude of the ski.
  • MSMS Posts: 5,164 Mega Baller
    @TUP I use a regular caliper from Goode not the slot. Hold the ski on its tip, press the head against the ski with your thumb and bring it down.
    Shut up and ski
  • TUPTUP Posts: 17 Baller
    Thanks MS
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,359 Mega Baller
    This is great stuff, @Rich. I am trying to comprehend a lot of these kind of details right now to change -38 from a pass I run a couple of times a season to hopefully one I run a couple of times a week.

    Doing the right stuff from the whitewash out seems to be the hardest for me, and I sense that I'm not alone. I think this is the fundamental reason that so many of us get stuck at -38: you really have to get that phase right, which was much less important (or almost not even required) at the previous line lengths.

    If I ever get to writing up an article about deep shortline techniques, I may have to include this sentence verbatim (with attribution of course!): It should be resist through the wake, keeping the ski on edge, resist more off the 2nd wake and rise up with both hands on the handle, feel the momentum of the boat try to rotate you toward it and resist this with the leading arm through your core.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • RichRich Posts: 252 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Thanks Than, I'm glad my writing has worked for you. Believe me as I have said, I really feel it 1st then I put it into words. I have been very fortunate to have skied with some of the best skiers in the world over the last 40 years. It has also taken me a longtime to fiqure out what short line slalom is really all about. At 5'7" it is a challenge. I will share with you that 38 is not that difficult when done correctly, impossible if you do to much in the wrong places. I do know that at 38 it is a combination of great technique, a great ski, good boat driving, and great fitness. I can run 35 on any ski, behind any boat driver within reason, in bad conditions. 38 is the dividing line where you actually go faster. 15 through 35 are almost the same as speed generated is concerned. I believe that you go 3-4 mph faster at 38.
    JC McCavit
  • RichRich Posts: 252 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Rich Storelee
  • @Rich - Can you take a look a my video? Post = "How To Fix Riding The Tail On My Onside" Just want to confirm I have the same problem you describe above. Thanks

    JC McCavit
  • Skoot1123Skoot1123 Posts: 1,793 Mega Baller
    @Rich - Excellent commentary. I utilized what you said and had a killer set last night even though I hadn't skied in 5 nights. Even upped my speed to a true 34.2 mph. What really rang true was feeling how the boat tries to turn your body out of position after the second wake. If you can resist that, even for just a "second" then the line is nice and tight all the way through the turn. Thanks!!

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