What is this score?

HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
edited September 2012 in Rules/Politics/Issues
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Comments

  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,311 Mega Baller
    More than a quarter but less than a half?
  • jlittlejlittle Posts: 261 Baller
    I'll go 1/4
  • BoodyBoody Posts: 613 Baller
    Not less than a 1/4. Would be 1/2 if she got over 1,3,5 buoy line, but hard to tell. Its close.
  • Mateo_VargasMateo_Vargas Posts: 934 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    What was the ruling on the field? We weren't dealing with replacement refs last weekend.
    Success is failure that just hasn't happened yet
    MattP
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,822 Mega Baller
    1/4
  • jlittlejlittle Posts: 261 Baller
    edited September 2012
    I'm curious about that also. In real time, giving the benefit to the skier, you probably could score it 1/2 real easy.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    From the camera angle it looks like 1/4 but am pretty sure it should have been a 1/2. No idea what the judges called.

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  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,277
    edited September 2012
    I'd call it 1/4 if it were realtime and I didn't have the pics to go on.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 1,079 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    It's really hard to tell with the camera angle, but it looks like she broke the 1,3,5 line just before she lost the handle. In real time I probably would have scored 1/4 but it's probably 1/2
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,921 Mega Baller
    @horton - per your own video that should not be considered a once in a lifetime 1/4... No?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    First of all this is 38 or 39 off. So Karen could not have stayed wide of the ball line far past the ball. I would bet that in the second image she was already inside the line and the 1/2 was good.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    Not sure this is scientific but if she was skiing parallel to the boat there would be very little spray. She is on an arc on the way back in to the wakes.

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  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,000 Infinite Pandas
    Clearly she had the handle past the ball and had made it outside the ball. Not by much so it doesn't take much to break the line back in. No way would I ever score anything but 1/2 in that sequence. Maybe that's why they made me a senior slalom judge.

    It's got to be clear she either let go before the ball for 0 or kept going out for 1/4. It is certainly not clear she did either so she should score 1/2. Some hostile judges here.

    Eric
    Than_Bogan
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,791 Mega Baller
    that happened so fast, I'd say half
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,472 Mega Baller
    1/4
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,673 Mega Baller
    If shortline, 1/2
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    @eleeski freaks me out when i think you are right

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    MattP
  • bmiller3536bmiller3536 Posts: 298 Baller
    1/2

    Brad Miller
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,734 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    1/4 without knowing anything else. But the perspective means a lot in this case. Without the ability to see the other 1,3,5 buoys there's little to go by as to where the magical line is.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board

  • webbdawg99webbdawg99 Posts: 1,067 Mega Baller
    1/2
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,878 Mega Baller
    1/2. Perspective of the photographer appears to be from the opposite shore. At that angle, the 1-3-5 buoy line is less steep than the shore line behind her. In the pics, we have no context with which to overlay the buoy line, so we are all just guessing. All judges are aware of the buoy line when judging. We have that context and mentally overlay it on each buoy we observe. In the pics, we are missing this critical piece and must analyze other clues to make an educated guess. Still, I agree that the spray off the ski suggests an arc back toward the centerline and not parallel to the boat's path and not even close to further outbound. 1/4 buoys are very rare... Only when the skier is falling outbound do they really happen. Or super wide and early at novice levels... Heck, even novice skiers who get outside a buoy and hang there, will almost always drift back over the buoy line prior to the next set of boat guides. So, my score is 1/2.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    Than_Bogan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,978 Mega Baller
    edited September 2012
    From that evidence, it has to be 1/2 due to the benefit of doubt going to the skier. Only if you can be absolutely sure that her front foot did not cross the buoy line while she still had the handle can you call 1/4. This angle isn't nearly clear enough to be sure of that.

    However, if we wanted to figure out what she "really" got, we'd need a better angle AND we're missing a frame. In the second frame, that handle has actually just left her hand. So it doesn't actually matter where she is in THAT frame. It's a frame or two back that would be the decider.

    (Just read some of the above: @eleeski has it right.)
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,305 Mega Baller
    Well, lets just require LOCs to install million dollar 10,000 fps cameras on every buoy so we can get the right answer every time.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • This is why there are 3 or 5 judges.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,978 Mega Baller
    @Kelvin I'm guessing you're going for humor there, but us engineers have trouble with number humor, so please forgive me:

    34 mph is almost exactly 50 ft/sec. So at the fairly standard video rate of 60 frames per second, the skier advances 50/60 feet per frame, or 10 inches from frame to frame. (Actually less while at the buoy, where the skier's speed may be slightly below the boat speed.) I think that's plenty of resolution to make a "perfect" call, given that it's a little ambiguous exactly what constitutes having the handle anyhow.

    To be clear, I am in no way advocating that we need perfect calls. Just follow the rules and give the benefit of the doubt to the skier and as far as I'm concerned we're good.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,472 Mega Baller
    we are being asked to make a judgement based on these pictures. Real time is different. Based on picture # 2 She clearly has lost control of the handle and the ski and body appear to still be out side the buoy line at last contact with the handle As in Skiing position, 1/4 buoy.
    Real time tower judge or boat judge I might have given 1/2 but then again....................
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,978 Mega Baller
    @jody Why do you believe she's still outside the buoy line? (That's a serious question in case not obvious.) Given the camera angle, my guess is that she is inside the buoy line, but the more important part is: Unless this were known to be a straight-down-buoy-line camera (which I don't see how it could be), I feel confident there isn't enough information here to rule out that she has re-crossed the line.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,305 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan yes there was some humor, but some frustration as well. I'm in the process of getting ready for a record tournament and the amount of technology involved seems over the top for what is at stake.

    But to your point, most consumer grade video cameras used in these tournaments are only 30 fps at most. Check out this video in slo-mo, freeze frame where the 30 fps isn't fast enough to clearly make the call.

    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,000 Infinite Pandas
    Jody, you are one of those hard ass Southern judges. Wrong, too. Enlarging #2 as much as my crappy phone will allow still has fingers on the handle. And there is a well developed arc visible too. That shot proves the 1/2!

    Way too much time is spent on this. Let the skier prove the miss. On calls this close consistently give the skier the benefit. Perfect? Maybe not. But with adequate camera views here, Jody still got it wrong. Hours of extra setup, money for fancy cameras and review delays and controversy will still exist. I will make real time errors, hopefully my error scatter is random and balanced. My default is always in favor of the skier - always consistent. That's as fair as it should be and needs to be.

    So the Seattle guy makes a one handed catch. The Green Bay guy wraps both hands around the arm and the ball. The Seattle guy then gets his second arm around the ball and they fall to the ground. Replacement refs!

    Eric
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,472 Mega Baller
    Gee wiz Eric You really decide to get personal Here! You just went on the list!

    Now go to your PC or Lap top and magnify by 500% at the handle and hand you will see it is nearly 3" away from the handle in photo #2.

    Stand By my "Hard ASS southern call" !1/4 !

    Eric! Funny though you will find my name as a senior judge and Driver on many world and national record forms in all three events! You?
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


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