Early Edge Change

DanElaDanEla Posts: 7 Baller
edited October 2012 in Technique & Theory
After years of pulling through the 2nd wake I'm going to try converting to an earlier edge change. The Nate Smith video posted by Brent in the recent Imperial post was the final push I needed to make this commitment. Does anybody who has tried a similar transition have any thoughts on the matter that might help me out? 34 mph, struggling for consistency at 32 off.
Dan Ela
There's always hope in February.
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Comments

  • thompjsthompjs Posts: 537 Solid Baller
    Well that ruined my day. I quit if you have to do that....
    ski6jonesjcampBoody
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,211 Administrator
    What @ShaneH said

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,359 Mega Baller
    Oh man, when I agree with ShaneH, it's one thing -- that seems to happen a lot. But now I also have to agree with Horton?

    But in all seriousness, it seems like there's really a building concensus that early edge change is a product of other good things, as opposed to something you can decide to do and directly get benefit from.

    Then again, once we all agree on something, it usually turns out to be wrong a few years later!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    [Deleted User]
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 800 Crazy Baller
    Ummm, wondering if @DanEla was wondering about trying to unload earlier and what to expect/think about... seems like the words 'edge change' derailed the poor guy's query for help.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,211 Administrator
    You can't ski to a point then think Hmmm this is the spot I will edge change here.

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  • webbdawg99webbdawg99 Posts: 1,067 Mega Baller
    ski6jonesNick Sullivan
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,104 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    What Shane and Seth said!

    This is the main thing I have been trying to make sense of and do all season. A really important part of this is if you didn't come off the previous turn and into the handle properly, its really hard to get it right behind the boat and influence how/when/where you change edges. Make sure you are in good shape coming into the first wake so you have a chance to own your moves through the edge change and out. Then go ski with Seth to dial it in.
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited October 2012
    I finally found a way to get and earlier edge change this season, @DanEla. In my case, I had to change how I thought about it altogether. Rather than think of it as something I had to do at or by the second wake, I now focus on a seemingly unrelated move before the first wake; and the edge change itself just happens where and how it should.

    What now works for me is focusing on getting back to the handle with my hips and shoulders ahead of my ski out of the turn, then aggressively moving the ski from behind me to ahead of me as quickly as possible during the cut into the first wake. This move fires the ski out ahead of me into a wide early edge change at the second wake while leaving my upper body still leaning against the rope with a good connection. I still can't do it 100% of the time yet cause I'm still committing it to habit, but it's been a game changer for both width and rope control!
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    andjulesNick Sullivan
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,278 Mega Baller
    Kudos @skijay for being one of the few to recognize and say that you have to finish the turn (come back to the handle) ahead of the ski. There are a lot of people that will say they want to finish the turn with the "ski out in front of them", acceleration is better on the tail, it prevents out-the-fronts, blah, blah, blah. The best and most efficient (and safest) acceleration comes from traveling with your ski through the turn back to the handle. It also develops the best angle which leads to the best edge change.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Edge change is a function of doing other things right. I try not to think about the edge change as an "event", but as a process. It doesn't happen all at once. To me the edge change starts slowly as I begin to feel the boat lifting me up, but at that point I am still on the leaning edge for quite a while. I may feel the boat lifting me up at the right gate ball, but I will still be on the leaning edge a long ways outbound, slowly shifting from leaning edge to inside edge. This can only occur with the right amount of line tension. Too much line tension and the edge change happens all at once and pulls you toward the ball. Too little tension and it won't pull you up at all. Given my preference, I'd tend toward the too light side rather than the too heavy side.
    Jim Ross
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    That's a good point you make about out-the-fronts, @jimbrake; I used to know them all too well back when I was changing edges late. My OTFs were all off of the second wake. Now, by the time I'm at the second wake, I'm on the back of the ski and inside its path. I feel safer now than I ever did in the past, with zero OTFs since making this technique change. I find it easier to maintain a good stacked position too.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • Live2skiLive2ski Posts: 19 Baller
    Hi @DanEla, I've been working on the same thing for the past 2 seasons. I can't really add much more than what's been said above to what your'e trying to do. I can however tell you how I have approached it to make the change actually happen:
    1. Buy Trakker and video camera (playsport by kodac for me) & video every set
    2. Find Videos of a pro or Dawg who you think your might aspire to ski like
    3. Shadow the bouys or free-ski to allow you to make many more wake crossings and edge changes
    4. Edit your vids and compare with those of the pros for body / ski position
    5. Send your vids to Seth or another coach who's willing to help you (expect to pay for their advice - its worth it if you're serious)
    6. Keeping doing the above and the change WILL happen.
    It's taken a while for me (slow learner) but at least this way you can see for yourself what is going on rather than relying on various people in the boat who may not know what is going on and offer the incorrect advice.
    Note: fifteenoff.com have a great free ski video of Seth Showing how to build up the edge change and wake crossing.
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,055
    I can say from experience, at 28 - 35, if I don't edge change off the center wake, I will end up down course....At 38 and shorter, it reverts closer to the second wake, just because you are hooking up closer to the center wake, since the line and handle are inside the buoy line....However, this all hinges on the fact that you have to ski a New School style like Nate, where you are more open to the boat at hookup, and can therefore, load more aggressively for a shorter amount of time...This creates a rebound effect from ZO, which helps cast the ski out, as Shane and Seth explained above.
    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 1,094 Mega Baller
    @dan ela..you can't translate what nate does at 36 and short short line to 34 mph and 32 off. You don't have near the release you do at 36. We are the pendulum, and the angle and speed from the prior turn dictates where the proper edge change takes place. Get someone in the boat that runs deep shortline to help....monkey see, monkey do seems to work best. If that's not available, post some video here. It's gettin' cold and a lot of skiers will be online more and in the water less...
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,104 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Of course 36mph vs 34mph changes things a bit, but no reason not to try to ski like Nate! I think the biggest difference between the tour skiers (and the top big dawg skiers) and everyone else is how the move through the wakes and out to the buoy. Nate does it so well and its easy to see in his skiing so its a great example. I personally feel there is enough whip in the rope to start working on this at 34mph/32off and it just gets more important as it gets shorter. The best coaches might argue you can work on it at even longer ropes.
    Than_Bogan
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,059 Mega Baller
    I'm in agreement with @bishop8950 in that it's the good habits you develop at the passes you run consistently that will help you at the next rope segment
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
    [Deleted User]
  • ToddFToddF Posts: 531 Baller
    Not super Accurate but Shows the Crossing points and path of the ski and the handle through the course.

    the center line is the middle of the course.
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,407 Crazy Baller
    @OB- Amen to that. The location of the edge change is directly related to the angle taken through he course, among other things. In order to have an earlier edge change, you need to have and maintain better angle. The ability to get better angle is based on better body position, timing, etc., all the more advanced components to the sport.
    jackski
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,407 Crazy Baller
    @OB-I'd be happy with a few "Likes", but in actuality, I just rephrased the main point of your previous comment...
    SkiJay
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,104 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @OB, I agree, you have to be doing a lot of other stuff right before you work on this. I watch plenty of longer line skiers (15-32) and this almost never the first thing they need to work on.
    Than_Bogan
  • MSMS Posts: 5,163 Mega Baller
    OB should be a 5 star
    Shut up and ski
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,278 Mega Baller
    OB is drunk.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • TriplettTriplett Posts: 209 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I, as usual, skimmed this. The edge change begins to be important at 32, at whatever speed. Now the concept that you can ski like a 36mph pro at 34, pro or not, is wrong. The only skier I have seen edge change "early" at 34, short line or not, was Andy. Safe to say the only skier that skis like Andy is really Nate and it shows.

    The key to an efficient edge change is a good solid pull, load on the line. This, in engineering terms, flexes the ski, adds potential to the carbon fiber so the moment you unload the ski it rebounds and goes to the other edge. This is really a movement at or slightly after the second wake.

    I would say the biggest thing to work on is when you do get on edge, hold on the handle to the width of the buoy line, then a progressive reach and close at the finish will allow you get the load on the boat, and start all over again.

    I would be happy to try to explain more, but this is broad overview of what will help you get the space and time at 32off, even get tons of space at 35off.

    Controlled speed is a good thing! Don't be afraid.
    Brent Triplett - Michigan
    dave_n
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,040 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Totally agree with Triplett that shortline edge change becomes more realistic and understandable at 32 off. Thus I also agree w/OB re: his comments about longer line skiers.
    I would add that it is easier for a shorter line (32 off and shorter) skier to take the handle to the buoy line if they DO NOT take too much angle or too much load as this will force an early release.
    My biggest old school problematic habit is taking more angle or load than is able to be maintained. I always have trouble with posts or articles that talk about getting as much angle as possible out of the ball. I can tell you 90 degrees and 1000 lbs of load doesn't work today at shorter lines behind powerful boats running ZO software.
    With that...agreeing with the recent posts above...the right amount of angle and load is that which allows you to keep the handle to buoy width without being pulled up course narrow and fast. If that occurs, there was too much pull, too much angle or both.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    Ed_JohnsonSkoot1123dave_n
  • ToddFToddF Posts: 531 Baller

  • ToddFToddF Posts: 531 Baller
    Ten stars is a little steep.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    I disagree with @OB. Regardless of whether a 15 offer can do everything that Seth shows, it shows them what they SHOULD look like at a line length and speed that they can relate too. When you're a 15 offer, watching a skier at 38 off does nothing for you. It wasn't that long ago that I was at 15 and 22 off. And stuff that I was told by Charles Mueller, that I also saw Seth doing in that video, now make a lot of sense to me at 35 and 38 off. There's a lot to learn from that video(and others like it) even if you can't emulate it.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    webbdawg99SkiJayDanENick Sullivan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,359 Mega Baller
    edited October 2012
    I actually agree with both ShaneH and OB re that video: There's a LOT to learn from it, but you have to be careful WHAT you learn, depending on your current ski level. If you're looking at Seth and thinking "oh, I guess I'll just force an edge change at about the first wake and I'll be good" then you're gonna go backwards. If you're looking at how he loads out of the ball and how he creates the tremendous angle that *allows* him to edge change so early, then you're gonna get better fast.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    [Deleted User]
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    There's a take away from that video that will help any skier and that's Seth's head position.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    DanE

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