The Rear Toe Plate - Diablo Shores Podium

Hello BOS,I have been reading BOS for a two years now. Really enjoy the website and like many others I am addicted.

I have spent the last two years rebuilding my skiing form. Step one was going back to the RTP after attending a Andy camp. Step two was dedicating myself this year to focus on "Stacked" and "Connection". The double boot put me in a position that prevented me from getting my hips up and keeping my elbows to my vest.
Wil Asher, Nate, TGas and CP all finished in the top 4 positions at the last big event of the year. All on RTP. Add Andy into the mix and those five skiers have been all over the podiums for a long time. Combine that will the number of pro's who use a neoprene rear binding and we are now covering +75 % of the top skiers.
What is your view of the domination of the podiums by the RTP ?
Would it be of benefit for all skiers to do some training on a well fitted RTP ?

I look forward to the discussion.
Cheers
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Comments

  • ralral Posts: 1,708 Mega Baller
    CP is skiing w/ RTP???
    Rodrigo Andai
    Dez
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 3,516 Mega Baller
    RTP fit... unkown, front highwrap - watch your set up. Lots of good binding options now for RTP's, I don't think I'll ride a highwarp rubber front RTP combo again.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    I talked to CP a bit at Diablo about going back to a RTP. The next week, I switched. The ski moves off the 2nd wake and outbound better. And turns the offside better. I won't go back to a rear boot now after having 6 weeks on it.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    I know the @TheKrista has been trying it. I have a funny photo somewhere of her first try.
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  • GregHindGregHind Posts: 320 Solid Baller
    Your kidding me! I just switched from an RTP to double boots last weekend. Since I could do it easily on land with the draft hinge boot, I figured I could get my back foot in the boot on the run (I always start dry off the dock) ran 5 @ 36 with my back foot half in the boot then did a deep start with both feet in. Last time I had to use double boots on a proper slalom ski, I was at Horton Lakes in California. Blew 5 starts in a row! Jack Horton was telling me to look up at the ski pole... 2 foot starts are for fence palings. I much, much prefer to drag my back leg on the start.

    Yes, I'll get to my question. Who makes the best RTP which will fit a 2008 Prophecy and where is the best place to get one?
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,981 Mega Baller
    @Horton I told @TheKrista to send me video at her first go at it... I need to have a word with her.
    I have always skied with an RTP. enough said.
  • CamCam Posts: 316 Solid Baller
    I tried an RTP at the end of this season after 10 years riding a rear boot of some description, I wouldn't say it was a disaster but I had to drop back to 32mph to run a pass, I think if my skiing was more technically sound the transition would have been easier.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,041 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    All 3 Ross Ballers are RTP skiers lifelong. I can't say it's better or worse but I do lift my heel on gate glide and pre-turn. Also SO much easier for me to get out of the water with a marginal low back.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    edited November 2012
    I had insanely bad, massive crashes going to the rtp with the front Reflex. The boat crew would laugh so hard they'd have tears in their eyes. It made the ski WAY more aggressive at the finish of the turn. The ski would continue to turn all the way back to where it was pointed 75 degrees or so cross course. Also, the edge change into my offside got so aggressive that I would sometimes fall off the inside edge coming into the preturn. Let me tell you.... when you face plant to the inside coming off the 2nd wake, it is NOT pleasant. I finally called Badal and said "Dude, this is going to kill me. What should I do?" First thing he had me do was move the fin back .025. I ended up with a long, deep, far back fin. Matt Brown says I ended up very close to what the HO pros are using. there is no way I could run that fin like that with double boots. What I like about that is that the long, deep fin works way better in rolly water. And it tracks stupid good from my offside turn back to my onside. But it was NOT a transition I could make in a few sets. It honestly took probably 25 sets for me to feel comfortable.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    MattP
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Ya -- I just don't like getting up two feet in. RTP for life.
    Jim Ross
  • wilecoyotewilecoyote Posts: 177 Baller
    edited November 2012
    Very interesting. I am new to the course this year. Best is [email protected] 30MPH so I am by all accounts a beginner. I've been a cottage skiier for 40 years, and this year I committed to learning how to ski properly. Once I started in the course, my instructor told me I needed a better ski (I was on a Connelly HP) so I bought a used CDX with Animals. When I mentioned to my instructor that many of the top pros were on RTP his answer was that all those guys have had their scary crashes and basically I needed the rear boot to keep me from getting hurt during a crash with one foot out of the boot.

    If I could go back to a RTP I'd love it. I still miss about 1 in 10 deep water starts with that friggin' two feet in start.

    So the question is, at my level, would it be a bad idea to go back to a RTP?
    2tracmind
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,900 Mega Baller
    I am an RTP guy also and part of me thinks that learning to ski the course with a rear toe is a good thing. You can't muscle the ski around with the RTP like you can with double boots. The one foot in/out argument has been around forever and I am not sure I buy it unless your front boot is super tight. People have been hurt with one foot in and both feet in.
    Mark Shaffer
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,981 Mega Baller
    @wilecoyote it is never a bad idea. Just because the top level guys are doing it does not make it bad for a beginner. If you look at most people who are just getting into the sport their skis have RTPs partially because its cheaper and easier to learn to get up on by dragging a foot. Unless they got suckered by a ski shop into buying double boots.
  • blockblock Posts: 171 Baller
    I was a life long RTPer. I changed several years ago and started having some rear hip pain. What do you guys think, related or not?
    John Seiler
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,819 Infinite Pandas
    I ride double hardshells. I've gone from pinned stiff cuffs to loose cuffs to rubber banded rear cuffs to my latest attempt with no rear cuff at all. I guess I'm trying to get to the RTP.
    Rear foot movement is an advantage. There are safety issues with too loose a rear foot - and too tight. Find what works for you. There are many right ways to ski.
    Eric
    BradyskibrainDez
  • wilecoyotewilecoyote Posts: 177 Baller
    edited November 2012
    Another issue for me at least is skiing at the club compared to the cottage. At the club I've got drivers that drive hours a day for really good skiers, but I just bought a "proper boat" (Supra) for the cottage, and none of my drivers have any experience pulling skiers with such a boat. I'm a bit concerned that getting up as a beginner in double boots requires a bit better driver than with an RTP. I guess I'll find out in the spring.
  • JC McCavitJC McCavit Posts: 494
    edited November 2012
    I ski with double Strada bindings. I do not use the upper laces on the rear boot so it is super loose. I do tighten the toe a bit. I can lift my heel and even move it around a little. I am wondering how much different this is than the custom ultra tight RTP the pros use? I won't be changing anytime soon. The primary reason for my double boot setup is to keep my feet warm in 40 degree water by filling them up with the hot water shower. Bare toes just doesn’t cut it in the cold.
    JC McCavit
  • BRYBRY Posts: 582 Crazy Baller
    Interesting most RTP'ers stress rear heel coming up. Double boots don't necessarily mean your rear heel can't come up. I ran a Reflex w/Wiley rear for a few years, liked the Wiley as the wrap was not tight so rear heel could come up. Tried some FM's but couldn't ski em due to those holding the rear heel down.

    Now on PS 5's as again the rear heel can come up, designed specifically to do so. In cold water dbl boots with liners are the best. A little hot water in there and all good. Like 50's and 40's degree water cold. I'm a wimp, unlike Doane, I don't go when in the 30's. Also, with the plate, both in or both out.
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,029
    Just a repost for the RTP'ers looking for a little more security with all the freedom of RTP. I have been riding it for 1.5 years....no issues....knock on wood. I am not saying injury won't happen; but, I have had a few nasty falls (OTF, yard sales) and have come out of it without any issue. That being said, nothing is absolute. I am not pushing or recommending this to anyone, just updating my experience to date of anyone is looking for a little more security.

    http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/4006/rear-toe-loopers-a-potential-fix



    Bob Grizzi
    Dez
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,511 Crazy Baller
    Ok so my big question for all the RTP advocates... What does lifting your heel accomplish and why is it any different from just unweighting your back foot and/or bending your back knee more?
  • DeanoskiDeanoski Posts: 802 Crazy Baller
    what is the best RTP Ho? wiley? Shane what do you use? Im in a reflex front, loose wiley rear now so I can lift My heel but the foot can not move side to side like a foot in a rtp can, I used a RTP yrs ago, Im going back to one its one of my x mas presents to my self.
  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 1,022 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I'm with Master @ chipman! I'm too old to change and not at all interested in the falls @ shane hill describes
    Brady
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,900 Mega Baller
    @rico with Stradas your feet release independently. You may not be as likely to have a split foot release but it definitely can still happen.
    Mark Shaffer
  • 2tracmind2tracmind Posts: 49 Baller
    I think in would be fair to say that if you frequent BOS, you have had the "Stacked" or "Leveraged" position driven home as the most important element up to 35 off. It is my humble opinion that if you have average or better core strength and you are unable to find the "Stacked" position you should examine your boot fitting.
    With the tail of our ski sitting deeper in the water (7 degrees ?) this predisposes us to be heavy on the back foot. If our rear boot does not allow flex and/or movement our efforts to be "Stacked" my be in vain. Putting in a heel wedge is a possible fix.

    Alpine ski racers travel across the country to visit their boot fitting guru to ensure proper flex and angles. A balance and technique drill used by snow skiers is to ski with their ski boots "unbuckled". If they are balanced and centered they can rip, if not they have instant feedback.

    Slow the boat down, lengthen the rope and try some old school neoprene as a training exercise.


  • DanEDanE Posts: 871 Crazy Baller
    edited November 2012
    When I was a beginner I went from rtp to db because I just did not feel confident my back foot would stay in place at all times ( Skiing in a big public lake, often in less than desireble conditions contributed to that)
    I started waterskiing after I got a knee injury in alpine Skiing eventually forcing Me to quit competing alpine, that injury is in my back leg ( lff) and I think because of that I've Always tried to get up more on my front foot .
    I tried Skiing with a rtp this summer and the Main difference it made for Me was how easy it was to turn. I got much quicker turns both on and offside and was Skiing an earlier Line with less effort.
    Sounds like i should revert to rtp then? Well the above was Only when I hit it right and I discovered that it became much easier to get up on the front foot ( too easy as my body takes every chance it gets to relieve my back knee causing Me to go out the front, especially offside)
    Now, if I did not have this bad knee I would definetevely try more to learn how to ski with an rtp, it was so rewarding when I hit it right.
    And in my glide before the gate my repar heel lifted for sure, without me consciusly making it lift.
    Lifting the rear heel makes you more stacked with your hips over the front foot, easy to feel this in the glide before turning in towards the gate.
    Can be felt in the Course before apex at the offside turn.
    Brady
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    edited November 2012
    The benefit to the rtp, I think, is more that it allows the heel to rotate around the axis of your leg. This allows the hips to open more, especially beneficial on the offside. The gotcha is that you've got to keep the chest tall and upright. If you lead with the head coming into the apex, the heel lift is a detriment. I think the heel lift comes more into play as the ski rebounds into you as it edge changes. Freeze frame Nate, Mapple, or Willy at the edge change. They've allowed the ski to rebound into them, their knees are bent 90 degrees, the rear heel is off the ski, and yet from the hips up they are still completely centered over the ski. Without that increased range of motion of the rear foot/ankle that wouldn't be possible.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • h2oskinats5h2oskinats5 Posts: 7 Baller
    @BLOCK I was a life long RTPer. I changed several years ago and started having some rear hip pain. What do you guys think, related or not?

    Absolutely, it has been known for quite a number of years that a stationary heel IS going to create some hip problems in EVERY double boot skier to SOME extent. Not only hip but knee issues can be created or compounded by the forces trying to move out, and up over the ski in the edge change. I also believe that there is NO coincidence in why these boys Fore-mentioned are all at the top of the podium. Hard work, LOTS of knowledge and time put into figuring out what works best for them but also how the ski reacts and your positions over it. i would say that 95% of advanced skiers in a rear boot DONT get enough weight on their front foot through the edge change (wanna ski like nate or will? you can't with a double boot. (hardshell or other)) it is a heel lifting up no more than it is a push down with the ball of the back foot and the toes. the move in the edge change is to keep you tall and over the CENTER of the ski right over top of the "sweet spot" in an athletic manner. simply lifting your heel is not athletic and thinking in that manner is a dangerous way of working on a RTP but if used correctly, you WILL feel the ski doing things you didn't even know it was made to do simply by the freedom in ROM.
  • jefflymanjefflyman Posts: 110 Baller
    Seeing my BFF right leg rapped around the back of his neck after his left came out of the rtp just crossing the wake before the course sold me on the saftey issue of double boots, period. If I never get into short ropes because of doubles so be it... being able to ski into my 70's (hopefully) and not miss a summer like I did in 2011 is way more important. Useing radar vectors a bit loose in the rear seems to give great heel lift. I like to hear more on the idea of shimming the rear boot more, great idea. Happy Thanksgiving fellow skiers!
  • DanEDanE Posts: 871 Crazy Baller
    @ShaneH - I´m with you all the way, but the edge change was the area causing me the most problems this season due to my inability to bend my rear knee into 90 degrees.
    Btw, if you look at the pros their rear knee bends more than that as the ski passes under them through the edge change as the rope gets really short.
    Hopefully it will get better next spring after the surgeon took this out of my kneejoint last week:
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,819 Infinite Pandas
    @h2oskinats5 Too many great skiers and performances are with double boots to support your claim "wanna ski like nate or will? you can't with a double boot". Double boots ARE different. But style changes, binding placement changes, ski differences - any of the multiple variables we face while skiing are as big or bigger factors than the rear binding choice. And injury issues are far more important than any technical factor.

    I switched to double boots from RTP years ago. Didn't really like double boots so I tried to switch back. A nasty one in one out fall resigned me to sticking with double boots - and figuring out the settings to make double boots work. Dialing in double hardshells has been a work in progress. And I haven't ruled out going back to the RTP.

    Lisa switched to double Radar Lyrics from soft rubber boots (with a very loose rear boot). Her skiing really suffered. Moving the boots forward 3cm has gotten her close to the old feel. Replacing the rear boot with the RTP (with a trick ski style heel strap to retain the rear foot) helped even more. But she occasionally has placement issues with the rear foot. And the RTP has certainly not been magic.

    Regarding double boots and hip injuries, a few years ago I canted my rear boot the "wrong" way. My buoy count loved it! But my hip started hurting despite no energetic falls. I almost quit slaloming until I figured out the correlation. Canting the rear boot the "right" way cured the hip issue but cut my scores a bit until I adjusted my style.

    The main reason that the RTP makes the ski work so much better is due to the reduced weight of the RTP! Throw a big old scuba weight on that RTP to match the weight of the old Wiley's rear double boot and see if the ski is still responsive. Weight matters!

    Eric
    Dez

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