A-1 COLDWATER QUESTION — BallOfSpray Water Ski Forum

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A-1 COLDWATER QUESTION

EFEF Posts: 63
edited October 2008 in Technique & Theory
<p>
<strong>John, I noticed on the A-1 all you did was go with 9 thousands less depth. I'm curious what you'd recommend for water in the 50-60 range. I keep increasing DFT, which is what I think I should be doing to keep my radius tight? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!!    </strong>
</p>
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Comments

  • jpskijpski Posts: 8
    <p>
    EF
    </p>
    <p>
    Honestly all ive ever done for cold water was added some wing angle
    </p>
    <p>
    JP
    </p>
  • Jim NeelyJim Neely Posts: 291 Baller
    Our water has droped from 80 degrees to 70. The water feels very slow (difficult to get wide). I was thinking of reducing the wing angle to compensate. Is that the wrong strategy?
    68" Vapor
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,588 Mega Baller
    <p>
    That's odd; in my experience, when the water gets colder, it feels faster.
    </p>
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • JayJay Posts: 64
    <p>
    I'll second that notion! Our water temps at the highest are maybe mid 70's and the lowest low 50's in the spring and late fall. The water is always faster feeling as it gets colder. Just got back from Florida and let me tell you that water is SLOW compared to what we ski on here or were skiing on here.
    </p>
    <p>
    Jim you say you can't get as wide now that the water is colder, we seem to find that also, we usually add depth to the fin to compensate for the temp change which helps in the width department, but we usually don't start messing with that till were below 60 in water temp.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    edited October 2008
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="4"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#000000">Typically I am not a proponent of cold water #s vs warm water #s. It is getting colder here in Bako and I am skiing like crap because I am cold. Like Jim, I am narrow but I am pretty sure that is because my handle control and strength are down in the cold. I was out running back to back 35s last night and was really struggling to be as smooth as I wanted. <span> </span>A couple of times I pulled my head out and ran some nice passes but it took more concentration then normal. <span> </span>Drop another 10 degrees and my knees are going to get stiffer and my strength is going to drop a tiny bit more.</font> </font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="4" color="#000000">All that said there is a change as the water gets cold but if you chase every 5 degrees you are never going to find your settings. On some skis I think DFT is very critical and would not move it for temp changes. Depth and length are generally more forgiving to change. When it gets really cold I tend to wheelie so I would be temped to take out depth but I believe that I wheelie because of the icicle in my rectum. </font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="4">So what I am saying is, add some wing if you want but generally if the ski works very well in the warn it should be close enough for cold water skiing. The problem is generally the skier.</font> <span> </span></font></font></font>
    </p>

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  • Jim NeelyJim Neely Posts: 291 Baller
    I probably made a bad assumption about why I was struggling to get wide. I'll try again tomorrow. It may just be my old joints.
    68" Vapor
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,456 Mega Baller
    The water temp @ Ski Park this week was 54', and headed down!
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • tjmtjm Posts: 350 Solid Baller
    I find it to be too much brain damage trying to adjust my ski as the water gets cold.   What I do instead is just slow the boat down a bit.  It gives me more margin for error as the water, along with my muscles and joints, gets cold.
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    edited October 2008
    <p>
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Cold water is harder than warm water. In warm/soft water the skis plane angle is steeper as its tail is sitting deeper in the water. A simple way to restore the plane angle is to move the fin backward. The opposite is true for cold/hard water. If you take a look at your ski when you are skiing in a neutral position behind the boat you will see that the point where the water breaks changes with water temperature. In cold/hard water it will break more to the back of your front foot as the back of the ski sits higher and in warm/soft water more towards your front toes.</font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span></span><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font></span><span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Of course our performance will change as well, as the temperature get colder. But it is possible to restore some of the performance by adding DFT, at least if you ski on an old Sixam.</font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span></span><span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Tsixam</font></font></font></span>
    </p>
  • Director DarwinDirector Darwin Posts: 381 Baller
    <p>
    John - I believe water temp (and the related viscosity) play a MAJOR role in the performance of a ski.  Our water fluctuates 30+ degrees from spring to summer to fall.  Hydrodynamic changes occur in even small temperature fluctuations.  The impact those changes have on our skis may not be significant enough to merit changes for every 5 degrees in variation but over the term of a season, I firmly believe that fin/binding adjustments are necessary.
    </p>
    <p>
    jhd
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    <p>
    Joe,
    </p>
    <p>
    You are right. I just tend to try to look at the skier first and then keep tweeks as small as possible. I am against the idea that there is a formula for warm vs cold water skiiing.
    </p>

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  • Director DarwinDirector Darwin Posts: 381 Baller
    John - I think we are on the same page.  I don't buy that there is a "pure" formula for cold/warm water just as there is no formula for "slow" or "fast" water.  I tend to subscribe to the theory that water is water and the buoys are all in the same place site to site (or should be!).  It is much easier to make small adjustments in skiing style than to search for the right fin number combination.  That said, I do notice a difference in the way my ski(s) perform in April/May and Sept/Oct vs. the heat of summer.  I'm not certain that any "tweaks" exist that would level the performance playing field but I'm always open to suggestions - particularly this time of year.
  • JayJay Posts: 64
    <p>
    From my expierience I can see the point of view of adjustments not needed basing that on a certain temp range. For me the setting work perfectly fine from water temps in a range form 60 deg up to the bathtub warm water of Florida, but as soon as the temps hit the low 50's and high 40's when were dumb enough to ski, there is a definite difference in the way the ski reacts. I don' think that anything dropping into the 60 deg range is needed of a fin adjustment.
    </p>
    <p>
    what's your guys' coldest temps of the lakes you ski on?
    </p>
    <p>
    And I am sure Mr.Schnitz would have an opinion in all of this!
    </p>
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">From 32f to 80f <span> </span></font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"><span>Tsixam</span></font></font></font></span>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    <p>
    TSixam,
    </p>
    <p>
    if you are really skiing from 32 F to 80 F maybe you should take some time off in the winter. I don't care how good your adjustment is, if you are cold as hell you will ski like hell.
    </p>
    <p>
    I hate to admit this but I think maybe a cold water ski and a warm water ski is a better idea then adjustments.....
    </p>

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  • JayJay Posts: 64
    <p>
    I agree wiht that statement about cold water ski and a warm water ski, up here in the arctic circle you lewt one of those carbon bad boys get a little sun on them on a cold day and it reacts different. I know the coach I usually go to in Florida has told me I should use a softer ski because of the colder temps. Must be something to it.
    </p>
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    edited October 2008
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">We take some time off. Our season runs from late March to early October. Nowadays we usually start as soon as the ice is gone, in dry suits of course. Back in the good old days we started even earlier, sometimes we had to take a few runs with the boat up and down the course to get rid of the thin ice from the night, but I am smarter now. </font></font></font></span><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font></span>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">I usually ski pretty well in the spring when the water is cold, but then as it warms up I have to move my fin backwards to keep skiing well. The idea of having a cold water ski and a warm water ski has not struck me before. It might be a good idea!</font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Tsixam</font></font></font></span>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,456 Mega Baller
    My RS-1 is pretty soft, so it still works well when the water temps drops. The lake water usually gets to about the mid 40's in winter. Well layered in a drysuit, my score in the winter is about the same as in the summer. Bag drysuits do a good job of helping the deceleration needed for the faster, colder water. I have never changed fin settings for the winter. The trick to skiing all winter is the wind-breaking top on the boat, and a heater that's working well. I couldn't imaging not skiing in the winter months.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    edited October 2008
    <p>
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">I think that the reason for being narrow in cold water is because the ski is slower! It might sound like a contradiction to what most people feel when they are skiing. </font></font></font></span><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span></span><span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">When the water is cold the ski sits higher in the water and don´t have the same grip as in warm water. So when you are leaning away from the boat you can´t keep the cross course direction as well as in warm water. You have more slip. You ski more straight to the ball and it feels like you are skiing faster, but in reality it is the more straight line that makes the balls come faster.</font></font></font></span><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font></span><span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">In warm water you have more grips and have more of a 90 degree path behind the boat. You ski much faster to the other side but have much more time to bleed the speed and set the turn up and it feels like you are skiing much slower.</font></font></font></span><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font></span><span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">I try to compensate some of this by adding or taking away DFT. </font></font></font></span><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font></span>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">From warm to cold water: When I feel that I am close to OTF at the ball or get to much tension on the line I move my fin forward. From cold to warm water: When I feel that I can’t keep the angle or when the tip of the ski is too high at the end of the turn, I move the fin back.</font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font></span>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">I adjust from about 0,756 to 0,728, and I make the change when the water is 60F or above.</font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Tsixam</font></font></font></span>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,456 Mega Baller
    Wouldn't it be the density of the water that would make it feel faster ? Any Chemistry Majors out there ?
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    edited October 2008
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">You are right. <span> </span>Cold water has higher density than warm water. Warm water is softer and the ski sits deeper than in cold water. Cold/hard water has more slip and it is harder to keep cross course angle. I think cold water is faster (more glide) than warm water but I think the main problem for water skiers is the slip problem.</font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Tsixam</font></font></font></span>
  • Director DarwinDirector Darwin Posts: 381 Baller
    So - am i correct in saying as the water cools, move the fin forward / as it warms move it backward?
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    That was the MO with my Monza. So far with the A1, I have not had to move it and we are well under 60f for water temps.
  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 371 Baller
    edited October 2008
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Yes, you are right. That’s what I do and it’s working for me.</font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></font></font></span>
    </p>
    <span><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Tsixam</font></font></font></span>
  • EFEF Posts: 63
    <p>
    MS, I've been told the A-1 is slower than the Monza. What are your thoughts on that? I'm on the A-1 now and I think it's by far the best ski I've had! This person tells me it's a 36mph ski, and for 34mph you have to generate more speed. I really don't understand that, could someone please explain????
    </p>
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    I thought that the Monza was the fastest ski I ever rode. I dont feel exausted when I ride the A1 but it does not seam as fast. I am at the ball every bit as early as I was on the Monza and I feel more stable. I can ride most skis to my average or better but the thing I like most about the Sauce is that no matter what I do on my off side I cant blow out the tail on this ski. It is always there under you.    
  • EFEF Posts: 63
    <p>
    MS,
    </p>
    <p>
    I agree with you completely! I'm also as early as I've ever been, and I keep getting more and more confidence on this thing because it never blows out. Not to mention it seams to build angle and maintain it like nothing else.
    </p>
    <p>
    Also, can anyone explain why you have to generate more speed at 34 than 36?? "At least that's what I'm being told by great skiers at my lake"
    </p>
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    <p>
    Technical engenieer I am not and I cant spell but That is why I believe that running 41 at 34 is much harder then at 36. Not that I could even run 41 at 36 or 34 but It is very hard to believe that no one has run 41. I have seen 39 run a zillion times at BDs and I have yet to see someone get by 3 ball. I think that the wider range of speed needed from ball to ball at 34 is greater then at 36. I think at 36 you can just stay moving fast but at 34 you have a tendancy to not be skiing as fast and must generate a bit more speed fluxuation as a result.
    </p>
    <p>
    Keep your maximum speed needed to its minumum point and keep your minimum speed at its maximum point. By doing that, your speed fluxuation will not be as great.
    </p>
    <p>
    Or maybe the 55k guys just dont have the talant of the pros.       
    </p>
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,588 Mega Baller
    <p>
    One of the problems with 41 at 34 is the timing of peak width. You are only going to be at peak width for a split second and it had better be the split second that is at the ball. Getting wide too early is just as bad as too late at that speed and length.
    </p>
    <p>
    Andy ran it and 3.5 at 43 in a C at Charleston a few years ago and Lucky ran it at a cash prize event (also a C) in Georgia a couple of years ago (did not get around the one ball at 43 though).
    </p>
    <p>
    Evidence would seem to support your theory that it's more difficult at 34. Both speeds with that line length seem impossible to me (PB is 4 @ 38). For kicks at the end of one of my practice sets, I shortened to 41 and just tried the gate. I tried for maximum angle and changed edges a quickly as possible as this is what a skier that gets into 41 suggested. I turned about 1.5 to 2 feet inside the one ball. Very illuminating...
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • scokescoke Posts: 681 Crazy Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    Great thread and info.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    Favorite part of this thread, MS "Technical <strong>engenieer</strong> I am not and I <strong>cant spell</strong> ". hilarious.
    </p>
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