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Speed Control. What to get?

KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
We just signed the contract for a 1995 mastercraft prostar 190 with a corvette LT-1. This boat doesnt have any speed control onboard, what is the cheapest option.. My guess is that is not a TBW (throttle by wire)

Coming from an open lake, behind a 1976 mastercraft skier.
Going to be skiing on a course regularly now and speed is going to be a big factor. "Ballparking it" may not be enough now. It would be awesome to have PP, just dont know what to get.

Comments

  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,202
    Well, you really don't have a choice. Perfect Pass Stargazer is all you have available. Optionally you could add the Z-Box for Zero Off emulation.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,612 Mega Baller
    Yup. PP stargazer is probably the best bet.

    Cheapest is Perfect Pass Cruise, which is 675 new (little less from skier to skier if you have a usa waterski affiliation).

    Cruise is just going to run the engine 1 rpm, it doesn't pay any attention to what speed the boat is going. So it is actually pretty good for recreational skiing on open water or recreational course skiing at medium speed.

    But with the boat you bought, and the fact that you were joining a ski club, you're going to want the stargazer.

  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    So theres a listing on ebay for perfect pass digital pro. What does it do. Is it just basic speed control? Its listed for under 400$
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    Does stargazer only work with a DBW engine? Because im almost sure they werent doing that in 1995
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,202
    No, you don't have drive by wire. That didn't come along until 2005 on the MC's. But Stargazer works with what you have.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    Any idea where to search for one?
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    Preferably used. The 1000+ prices are a tad out of our price range, especially after dropping $ for the boat
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,249 Mega Baller
    @Jody_Seal might have something laying around.
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,612 Mega Baller
    Digital pro is what Perfect Pass made for a long while, it is RPM based, so it doesn't know how fast the boat is going. This is why you get so many threads about zero off and skier efficiency. The new generation of speed control feels the boat slow and puts on the throttle, digital pro you could slow the boat down by pulling as hard as you could.

    The whole DBW issue is on the newer boats, PP for a little while made DBW speed controls, PP and ZO came to an agreement, PP will continue to make SERVO operated controls, ZO will continue to make DBW controls.

    As none of the old boats came with DBW, and new boats with cable throttles are less and less common we've reached a point where there aren't THAT many options.

    There are however a number of folks that own boats that were PP DBW equipped, where people are adding ZO and having both installed in the dash.


    Ski it again is the place to watch for a used system.

    EBAY watch out - many of the systems on there are not complete, it'll be a gauge and the control module, but with out a servo. Or everything but the gauge. It is not always the best deal compared to buying a complete system.
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    Does stargazer respond to the pull of the skier like ZO or is it a gps based PP classic type deal?

    What are all the components needed for a digital pro version. The one we are looking at has...
    (1) PerfectPass Digital-Pro Master Module
    (2) Smart Timer Magnetic Sensor; 17½ Ft Harness; (1) 3 Pin Female connector
    (1) 12 Ft Cable; (2) 2 Pin Female Connectors
    (1) 11 Ft CSA CMG 18 AWG Harness; (1) 6 Pin Male, (1) 2 Pin Male, and (1) 5 Pin Female Connector
    (1) 1.8 Degree Step Motor 5618L-54-02; 4.08V 1.6A w/o Knob; (1) 6 Pin Female Connector and (1) 2 Pin Female Connector

    I know this doesnt come with the display on the dash. But we have found a few for under 100 bucks. Seems reasonable.
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,977 Infinite Pandas
    I'm not a Stargazer fan. Perfect Pass Classic can yield training on par with tournament ZO if you have a savvy driver and the switch option. Plus it's cheaper than Stargazer. Make sure you get the switch and shorten the rope by the length of the switch line. Stargazer is hard to dial in to get a ZO feeling pull. Pp Classic with KX- PX10 and the baseline set so the skier weight is heavy makes a transition to ZO easy. You will need end course and three ball magnets in your course. The PP display will give you weight adjustments to correct to a perfect time after each pass. Get the paddlewheel option for tricks and wakeboarding. PP Classic is a great system that is relatively easy to use and feels wonderful to ski behind.
    Eric
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,977 Infinite Pandas
    @Kcswerver It looks like your parts list is missing the switch and its harness and the paddlewheel. Make sure you get the manual as well.

    I've always bought from PP directly. Great service, good prices and always the correct parts. I've converted three boats and done several repairs. It's easy and a good system.

    Eric
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    If we plan on only using RPM mode, is the paddle wheel even necesesary?
  • WBLskierWBLskier Posts: 477 Baller
    Is the servo listed there? Maybe I missed it.
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    The step motor is the closest thing I can think of to the servo motor
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,612 Mega Baller
    If you want to pull anyone at trick speed you want the wheel.

    But you have to drill a hole through the hull.

    Step motor is the servo. A discussion of the difference between the two types would best be had on a hobby cnc machining forum, they are different but whatever pp calls it is the same.
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,977 Infinite Pandas
    I agree with Bracemaker. You really do need the paddlewheel. RPM lets the speed wander all over the place anywhere near planing speed. That is any speed for kids, kneeboards, discs, wakeboards and tricks. Slalom only can get mighty boring for the whole family. And your resale will be much better because you can give Dad a perfect slalom pass and the kid a sweet wakeboard ride. It IS worth it.

    Eric
  • Mateo_VargasMateo_Vargas Posts: 912 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Here's a cheap DBW system for anyone looking: http://sacramento.craigslist.org/boa/3700800531.html
    Success is failure that just hasn't happened yet
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,511 Crazy Baller
    I looked at used systems for quite some time and they were either expensive enough to barely justify the savings (a couple hundred less than a new stargazer), had missing parts, or they seemed really sketchy.

    I'm very happy with my Stargazer unit and if the standard settings don't suit your needs, you can always reset it to operate with all the settings of PP Classic with GPS. You can install the whole thing in less than an hour and you don't have to drill a hole in your boat or worry about broken/worn out parts that you may not be able to replace. I bought my unit from www.skiertoskier.com. If you're a member of INT, AWSA, or some waterski club, they give you a pretty significant discount. I think it's 10% but can't remember for sure.

    Take my opinion for what it's worth but if you aren't very familiar with PP, you need to stay away from used equipment and the older PP systems. It's not self explanatory and it's not newby friendly. Even if the system works, if you can't figure out how to set it or how to adjust it, you'll be as bad or worse than just hand driving.
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,977 Infinite Pandas
    @Waternut GPS is not an instantaneous speed measurement. The lag between speed changes and a GPS reaction is long enough for me to feel. ZO accelerometers, PP switches and PP paddlewheels do react to speed changes quickly enough to satisfy my ability to feel. Stargazer combined with a paddlewheel is great because you don't have to calibrate the speed for tricks but the instant control is by the quick reacting paddlewheel.

    GPS only for tricks moves way too much for me. I mix smooth finesse tricks with big pull power tricks. The time lag is huge. I spend lots of money on stiff Spectra ropes to get solid response to my pulls - a speed control which negates that is not acceptable. ZO A also feels bad to me. PP paddlewheel feels great!

    To me it seems like any time I pull hard slaloming on Stargazer, a couple buoys later it hammers me to make up the time. If Stargazer for slalom had a switch input the feel could be better. Does the Zbox have accelerometers?

    Used parts are for the very savvy risk takers...

    Eric
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,612 Mega Baller
    Used assumes the previous guy knew what was pp and whats boat.

    Start with stargazer. If it bothers you at low speed add a paddlewheel.

    @eleeski i still want to hear from soneone how Jagers thrust contol modhle feels.
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,511 Crazy Baller
    @eleeski Yes Zbox does have acceleromters. I know the GPS can be exceptionally accurate but the receiver and the systems programming is the key. ZO, PP, and cell phones all collect from the same source but how often they collect and how they process the information is what differentiates them. Accelerometers and GPS aside, a 400hp fuel injected boat with DBW and transmission reduction can react to speed changes a whole lot faster than a worn out 240hp carbureted engine with cable actuated throttle and a 1:1 transmission.

    In fairness, I do run my stargazer in 3 event mode even on open water because I didn't like the lag in slalom mode and it's not adjustable in normal wakeboard pro mode. Even then, SG really helps out a lot just because it's so much easier to adjust and change settings thanks to the multiline display. I don't have to tell it that my boat is in nuetral either. Zbox is on my list of things to buy but I don't have one yet so I can't comment on it.

    @KcSwerver I don't recommend it but if you are truly strapped for cash right now and don't think you'll have enough anytime soon, you could always buy the RPM cruise system and upgrade later. It will cost a little more that way but if you can't have fun hand driving for a little while, it might be a valid option. I buy almost everything used from cell phones, ski's, boats, engines, etc. but I was too scared to buy PP used. There are just too many things that could end up screwing you.
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    The reason we are trying to go the cheapest way possible (other than the obvious) is because we are purchasing a boat, putting about 2 grand in it to make it a stunner, and we still have two other mastercrafts to take care of.

    If I'm hearing you all correctly
    1.) Buy new, because it eliminates tons of risk taking
    2.) buy stargazer because it will allow to use PP classic, or GPS, and upgrade with z box and will improve resale

    @eleeski I am the primary user behind the boat. I am planning on learning some tricks this year but it won't be vital for the boats speed to be dead on, last summer my dad pulled me a bit on the trick ski and I didn't feel the need for PP.
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,612 Mega Baller
    Your father must be decent at throttle control, usually it is a mix between scary fast and slipper or trying to keep your hips up enough to not sink.
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,511 Crazy Baller
    I'm on board with those statements except the resale part. I can't imagine you'd even get the purchase price of the unit back when selling. Might make it more appealing to some people but price probably won't be affected much.
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,612 Mega Baller
    I look at it when shopping for a boat. You might not get the purchase price of the unit - but if it is a situation where you're on the market with other similar boats that your boat has a feature the others don't.

    And in the market of "ski boat" particularly closed bow ski boats people look at these things.
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