Leveraged pulling position

KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
Iv been doing dry land practice quite a bit lately and iv developed a leverage position that I like and I think will be effective, but here is the deal. Last year I did the same, worked on dry land to get my muscle memory in a good spot but I could never translate it to the water as much as I would have liked.. At all..

So what are your ideas on on efficiently translating dry land muscle training to the water.

Here are some pictures I took yesterday while I was working.imageimageimage
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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,516 Administrator
    edited April 2013
    Let me start by saying that I do not know of any high end skier that spends any time leaning on a rope on shore. I think it is good if you are thinking about concepts. As far as muscle memory I think it is mostly or completely a waste of time.

    You are not hurting anything and it that is what it takes to get you through the winter go for it.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,516 Administrator
    So lets talk about your position in these images. In the second image - Your pelvis is very open, your back leg is bent and your front leg is straighter. At this point you have about ZERO power. See how your knees are parallel? At this point all your strength is in your back leg, your front leg is useless and you are locked in an weak position.

    In the third image your hips are more logical but your knee bend is still way to uneven. You are trying to be centered but when you do this on the water you will end up back – back on the ski and that is BAD.

    You need to either straighten your back leg (my personal solution) or drive your front ankle forward more like Terry Winter.

    Back to why I think leaning on a pole is not getting you anywhere, the position you are in at the wake is mostly dependent on the position you were in at the exit to the previous turn.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,516 Administrator

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  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 598 Baller
    I believe there is a lot of benefits that can derived from executing dry land drills. More on this when I get chance to sit down and write...

    But I will quickly say; it can be as beneficial as "Shadow Boxing" or working in front of a mirror for Dancers and a multitude of other examples, anyone in Martial Arts knows and practices the moves and the disciplinary aspects Religiously!

    Not a good comparison; I really feel that what a "Shortliner" does and what he/she might teach are often 2 entirely different things, depending on the Skiers ability level. We're not talkin about trying to teach a shortliner how to leverage. Not to mention, there are very few shortliners who are not on the water more often then all the Joe Average skiers would be doing drills.

    I'll try to find some time later to put something a little more useful on here
  • JohnCoxJohnCox Posts: 357 Crazy Baller
    I watch other skiers....and look for that feel. This was CP on Saturday from 3-4 at 38. I'd like to have that kind of leverage. His transition from the turn in to this position was incredibly smooth. Helps me set goals...and, he's a pretty awesome coach, too.
    Mapple T2
    www.mappleskis.com
    MikeBrady
  • Skoot1123Skoot1123 Posts: 2,120 Mega Baller
    @kcSwerver - think about how your feet are angled when your on the water. They aren't flat. I would recommend a plate/block - something that would put your feet on an angle so it feels more like a ski in the water. Otherwise you are side loading your feet/ankle and that could end up hurting you more than helping you.

    Just my 2 cents.
  • WishWish Posts: 8,421 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Kcswerver do the same on the water. Assuming your running buoys, use the course in a different way. Try to hold that position out to the side of the boat the length of the course staying outside the buoy line. Do this for both leverage/stacked directions. The better your stacked position, the wider you will get outside the buoy line and farther up the the boat you will find yourself. Challenge yourself by increasing boat speed or shortening the line with the drill. You will get a long controlled muscle memory understanding of that stacked position. Good luck. Have fun!!
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    Thanks for the tips, ill try to be more balanced. I find it much easier to have better body alignment on my off side from the hips up but worse foot and leg placement. And the opposite for on side.
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    @horton thanks for the link. That's good wording, I have never been around anyone besides my dad who knows anything about skiing so these articles and @johncox 's picture are invaluable to me.
  • ralral Posts: 1,925 Mega Baller
    I agree with @Horton, good as a visualization tool not as a muscle memory thing.

    For muscle memory, do the same thing on the boat side with a 28 off rope, and lean a full course staying out of the buoys. Need a reliable driver that keeps straight and does not move the boat towards the side you are leaning into.
    Rodrigo Andai
    WishA_BBradyBulldog
  • estromestrom Posts: 512 Baller
    @JohnCox, that pic is awesome - thanks! I have a few like that that I switch around as my screen pic.
    JohnCox
  • KcSwerverKcSwerver Posts: 389 Baller
    I guess I didn't really mean muscle memory. I'm more interested about becoming comfortable with the feeling and getting back into the groove before the season hits kansas.

    Shane, excellent description ill Definitely work on this. Iv always read about being balanced over the ski and I got the impression that I was doing a fair job at it but if this is an accurate representation of my skiing maybe I'm not, and this will probably help me.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    I agree with Horton except on one thing: I see high level skiers do rope-tied-to-pole drills all the time. Jamie spent hours with me one day holding a handle wrapped around a support beam to his deck.

    I think you have to go back and forth. Out on the water, things happen too fast to learn something new. Back on land, things happen so slowly that you can't tell if your position is able to handle dynamic loads.

    But if you learn the right things from each place, the improvement can be much more than either alone.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    Bradyh2odawg79
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,516 Administrator
    @Than_Bogan

    We are talking Jamie. . :-) Was it admit concepts? Or muscle memory?

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    Definitely not muscle memory -- but maybe mental conditioning as far as what to be focusing on when. I don't think I'm parsing your first question.

    But I did lots of muscle-memory-intended static drilling when I was trying to totally overhaul my terrible position. That's almost 20 years ago now, which is scary. But I still think there's a lot of value for an intermediate skier who needs to "start over" as far as balanced, leverage position. But, again, only if mixed with actual skiing.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    h2odawg79
  • wilecoyotewilecoyote Posts: 199 Baller
    I was going to say you've got the wrong foot forward.

    I've been doing the same thing, I keep a handle tied to the wall in my lab at work, but I've got a block set up so my feet can be on an angle closer to what it would be on the ski. I am a bit paranoid about having the rope break or the wall anchor let go and whacking my head. It would make a good news item when they find the body though.

    My plan is to practice beside my boat this summer as I don't have a course, and then try to apply it on my days at the ski club.

    I can't say how much the dry land can help, but I've pinned my hopes on it. When you consider you are only ever in that position for max 2 seconds at a time when you're running the course, it doesn't give one a lot of time to work on position. And when you consider I can't make it past 3 ball, that's only 6 seconds of practice per pass.
    Brady
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,590 Mega Baller
    edited April 2013
    It may not be much help for the high level skiers but but definitely helps a low ender like me. I practice the pulling position as well as practice kinda walking through the course and envisioning each phase of the course and where my body should be etc.

    I never thought of it as a strength thing, although I see @brady s point. It's more to ingrain it into my head.
    h2odawg79BradySkoot1123
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,973 Mega Baller
    I have a rope on my garage and one hanging from the rafters for "finger tip" conditioning. I just hang on that sucker in my old gloves.

    Winter sucks.
    Bradyh2odawg79dtm8119
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,351 Mega Baller
    Pulling on a handle on land is no new style deal. My ski partner in NY did it and started me on it back in the 80's. A basement pole is a good hookup. Do pull-ups on it and it will help in Spring like @brady said.
    Crap, I forgot to do them this winter....
    Bradyh2odawg79
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,197
    @Brady, I like your post and agree there are some benefits to dry land pulling drills, some of which you described. I'll add that for some of us middle aged farts, pulling on a rope prior to skiing helps stretch all of the appropriate muscles and tendons prior to skiing and serves as a pre-set reminder of things we need to be focusing on once we hit the water. Tendinitis seems to appreciate the pre-set drill as well
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,516 Administrator
    @KcSwerver
    When does your season start? I am working up an idea ... long distance coaching... sort of.

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  • Skoot1123Skoot1123 Posts: 2,120 Mega Baller
    When I was at ski paradise in Mexico, Gordon R would always use the pulling rope that was mounted at the palapa and get a stretch in before his set. He recommended that I use it to at least feel what that right position would feel like. (There was also a foot plate angled like a ski on edge). It certainly helps with getting the callouses started on your hands if you haven't been doing pull-ups all winter. While elite level skiers may not need it (or use it) as much as us low level skiers I still think there is some added benefit to getting in a proper leverage position on dry land. Proper application would then need to be taken to the lake so you could feel that position on the water. You can't replace the feeling of the water under your ski, but you can reinforce that proper leverage position. Besides, pulling on that rope in the garage is fun!!
    h2odawg79
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,516 Administrator
    @Skoot1123 what is am somewhat discouraging is the idea that spending hours per week on a handle on shore is going to change your skiing. That is lucky for @KcSwerver because what he was practicing is not what he wants to do on the water anyway.

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  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,283
    So the problem is exactly what @kcswerver found above. What he thought was a good leveraged position, was in fact bad. So he's been practicing bad position on dry land. It goes back to the old addage......... Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. I think that's one of the biggest problems I have with dry land technique. Unless you have someone to tell you you're doing it wrong, how does one know? Then you're practicing bad technique.

    Shane "Crash" Hill

    BradySkoot1123
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,516 Administrator
    @ShaneH it confuses me when you are wise.

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  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,283
    @Horton I keep telling people that I'm much more than a pretty face.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • BradyBrady Posts: 1,085 Mega Baller
    @ShaneH If you ever step out of my boat, I will catch you before you fall.....just sayin
    I ski, therefore I am
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,973 Mega Baller
    One thing I've been working on the implementation of is "screwing" my feet into the ground. The concept that loading external rotation on the hips opens the hips up and gets your body into an athletic stance.

    Get a flat rubber elastic band and do the thigh master externally - I think you'll find that strength there will REALLY increase your lower leg power (where as leg presses do not nearly solve it)
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