Asymmetry in slalom : What do you do different?

Wish

Ok, piggy backing off the T-whisperer thread. Was suggested there that we do not talk about what we as skiers do different from one side of the course to the other. It IS an asymmetrical sport based on one foot being in line and infront of the other. Slow any film down (just about any) and you will see differences in on vs off side or toe vs heel side or however you want to define it. I think I spend to much time trying to make them the same. Find myself changing something to my off side for the better only to find myself applied that to the on side for no good reason. Actually messes up my on side most of the time. SO what is it that you do different, intentional or unintentional from one edge change to the next?????

SkiJay

@ Wish On my off-side, I feel like I have to use my rear leg to drive my hips open and forward over my ankles as I go around the ball, whereas I'm not even aware of my rear leg on my on-side turn at the ball.

ral

What do I do different? I do a pretty decent onside turn and a really CRAPPY offside turn. Very different...

thager

Same here. I am LLF and drag my rear bow leg on my offside turn (2-4-6) in the water.

Skoot1123

This past season I thought my offside was a better turn than my onside. I tended to push my back leg in the onside turn whereas my offside I would let it come around naturally. Something to work on this year!

Razorskier1

@Wish -- RFF. What I have noticed is that I have to be aware of my shoulder position in a number of aspects. First, in order to keep my shoulders level and facing forward I need to think I'm reaching forward on the offside, but not so on the onside (where my shoulders are naturally more open). The onside is very different in that if I think about reaching forward, I will end up with my shoulders facing the shore instead of facing downcourse. Now, it probably isn't really reaching forward on the offside so much as it is thinking about position and keeping my shoulders level and facing downcourse.

Second, Chet mentioned to me this year something I noticed but never thought about: it is somewhat natural for a skier to let their shoulders fall back and in on their onside, and forward and in on the offside. Hadn't thought about it, but reflecting on my skiing over time, it is pretty easy to see that when I make a mistake, it will be falling back and into the onside (overloading the line as a result) and falling forward and in on the offside (resulting in getting busted at the waist). I plan to be more conscious of that this year. Those are the big ones for me.

skibug

(I am RFF) I just remembered this last night as I was skiing and trying to figure out why I was breaking so much at the waist on my offside turns; which I wasn't doing so much at the end of last season. I need to remember to turn my palm UP as I release and reach at 1,3,5. This might be a natural thing for high end skiers; but, I have to think about it. This makes all the difference in the world for me. It keeps me from reaching down, it pushes my shoulder up which brings my inside hip up as well, my shoulders are more level, I am slower to the handle, and the handle is in a better position when I come back on to it.

Razorskier1

@skibug -- I heard that old Doc Horton was a proponent of that approach.

skibug

I actually noticed it in the Terry Winter HO video and that is what made me think about it when I went out for a set last night.

Than_Bogan

Probably insane idea: Has anyone ever tried purposely turning palm down on the "on side"? I get how palm up can subtly help to prevent getting forward on the off side, which then makes me wonder if palm down can help prevent getting back on the on side?

estrom

I just watched video of Nate at Diable Shores and he actually turns his palm down initially upon release on his off side. His hand and the handle stay virtually vertical on his on side.

Wish

A side question.. Has anyone been coached to spacifically do something different on one side vs the other in order to accomplish the same result. ???????? If so, what????? I've never been told by a coach to do something different on each side in order to accomplish the same result yet I find myself doing just that. I've been coached to tweak one side or the other. That I remember. Even here it seems to be one sided discussions (pun intended)

klindy

Hope this isnt too far off topic because its not an asymmetry issue but I've been coached to imagine I'm shooting a bow & arrow to help maintain handle position. Personally I think this accomplishes a couple things, most notably keeping your shoulders and hips up and keeping your head up/shoulders square (imagine you're sighting right down the 'arrow'). It also helps keeping your 'non-handle' arm from getting too out of control.

Ed_Johnson

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0193/5239/files/garth-milicich_grande.jpg?1314

@klindy...If you can do the Bow and Arrow Apex both sides that is asymmetry...here is a picture of how I view what I believe your talking about...I work hard on this C Position all the time.

jimbrake

@skijay - I agree with what you said. I'm lff and on 2/4 I have to drive my inside hip and shoulder forward to the point that I feel that rear leg straightening, almost stretching. I don't feel pressure on it as if I'm leaning back on it. I just feel that leg getting long to get that right hip forward. Onside I never feel my rear leg/foot. After that it's vision for me - have to keep my vision down lake until I'm back on the handle to keep my inside shoulder up and driving forward through either side turn. I try to be as symmetrical as possible on both sides of the course in my hips, shoulders, and vision. My offside ranges from pretty good to awesome. My onside ranges from decent with an occasional "nice!" to crap.

SkiJay

@jimbrake Great description of what I too am feeling with the rear leg on my off-side. Discovering this was a revelation, and a big step forward in my efforts to be stacked out of the off-side ball.

ral

@Than_Bogan, I have, and IMHO just by itself, it does not work. I am now a firm believer that things like looking to specific places like the pylon or the shore, or moving the palm with the handle up or down might work for some people because they generate for them other behaviors (If you manage to understand what I am trying to say...). Some people swear that looking to the bottom of the lake at the turn and to the pylon when approaching the wake result on shoulders to be level. I can look at these places from 2 to 3 with my shoulders and head tilted 45 degrees towards 3... Other stuff works for me that might not work for someone else. A good coach will find out what works for each skier. Leveled shoulders is the goal for my offside. When I do it (not that often...) life is early and easy.

As @OB, coaches do no even mention 1-3-5 to me (onside).

Marco

We use the palm up concept in coaching to try to break the habit of someone reaching down at the buoy. While palm up is not necessarily how you want to reach as a matter of practice, it does make it akward to reach down/dip shoulder, at the buoy. Thinking about your palm position is a lot easier than thinking level shoulders for less experienced skiers.

OTF

@wish i do way better crashes on my off side......lol hence the user name. Are we going to be skiing you again this summer??? Hope so. OTF

Wish

@OTF- 100% YES!! Will be sneaking into your regionals later in the season as well. Looking forward to it. !!

Wish

Actually at Bogarts in Apple Valley MN right now. I raise my beer with my thumb low on the glass on the right with a higher glass grip when drinking from the off side (left handed) . Never noticed that before.

andjules

I'm not at the level of many folks in this thread, but it seems to me that a lot of the open-shouldered thinking applies more to the onside turn and pull then it does to the offside. The emphasis is on the natural mechanics/kinesiology - and in the onside stance, being open makes complete sense. But trying too hard to be open/level-shouldered during the offside pull doesn't seem to be natural (if someone forced you to be in a tug of war but with your feet in an offside configuration, what would you do with your hips and shoulders?).

Similarly, I think hooking up too quick and hard (overturning) is predominantly an onside turn problem. Making sure not to crank your head across the lake helps a lot. Not so sure about the offside - and I notice some pros do crank their head pretty hard at the end of the offside turn (Nate seems to be doing this less lately, but if you go back a couple of years, it's more dramatic).

If you have a look at the new Terry Winter on the A3 video, the difference between the first offside turn/offside pull and the following onside turn/onside pull seems pretty dramatic to me.

jimbrake

@andjules - how symmetrical or not a skier is in the onside vs. offside stance and position is another one of those personal style/biomechanics things. Terry does rotate more on his offside than his onside and obviously does great with it. I find that the more I am level in the shoulders, countered, and hold that position back to the handle on my offside, the smoother I am at the finish of those turns and the better I carry speed through that turn. If I rotate on the offside I get too much ski in the water too quickly and stop that flow and the end of the turn becomes a hard "bite". There are a lot of great skiers that can maintain speed and turn radius through their offside turns while rotating. I definitely can't.