Everything you need to know about Zero Off for 2013

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Comments

  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,663 Crazy Baller
    I noticed that this weekend at our tournament. I had driven the '13 several practice sets and looked at the pretty little slalom course, thinking, " that should make it easier for drivers to read off times". Obviously I wasn't thinking clearly. First missed pass while I was driving the tournament ( first tournament pull for the boat) and it hit me....you gotta add a buoy from the actual score to get the proper time. Also on the Linc, In jump you're back to seeing four times as opposed three on RevR regular display. Another confusion factor. Two steps forward and three back. Oh well, they drive and ski great and they're really cheap to buy.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,705 Administrator
    edited July 2013
    The Mississippi BigDawg Becky told me that almost no one in FL uses plus. Makes me wonder about my choice of B2+

    I am sticking with it because if I have to ski some Perfect Pass every so often the gate speed should be closer.

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  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,663 Crazy Baller
    @Horton, based on my observations, any + setting will take the boat through the entrance gates at about .4 MPH faster than without the +. 34.2 MPH w/o + is usually 34.7 and 35.1 with +. This is a good deal faster than PP.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,366 Mega Baller
    edited July 2013
    Maybe RFF guys like the jazzed up gate better then LFF. I am RFF and hit my gate hard. I am finding I like + a lot, because it doesn't bite back at one ball like Q use to.

    My ski partner was a C2 guy, was 50/50 running his 35's and not much at 38. Using the + the very first time he was 3 for 3 on 35 and ran 3.5 and [email protected] He was mad we didn't upgrade to R sooner.

    Our water is well over 80.
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,297
    First of all, I am a Fla. guy, and I LOVE the plus !!

    Having skied the plus for an extended amount of time now, behind several different boats and with several different skiers...I have found what are some common similarities.

    First is that Light Guys don't like the plus...Everyone of them I ski with have switched back to C1, including one Pro-Skier...The bigger Guys seem to Love the plus..Most use A1+ A2+ B1+ B2+. Not one skier of any size or weight liked C plus.

    Second is that the pull is greatly effected by which Prop your behind...I have skied two 5.7 L and one 6.0L with the 422 Prop, and it gives you the softest pull..B2+ worked great for that...My boat is a CC200 6.0L with the 654 Prop and it gives you a stronger pull...Using A1+ behind that, gives me the same feel as B2+ with the 422 prop.

    For a long time I thought it was the bigger engine that gave the stronger pull, but have found the Prop really has the bigger influence...The very best pull I have had was behind a new 2013 CC200 409 with the 422 prop.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
    Jody_Seal
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,663 Crazy Baller
    That put an exclamation point on something I've long knew had to exist. With all the settings available, I can tune my boat so that I feels best for me, but I get to a tournament and I need to ask the driver " hey guy, what prop does that thing have?" He obviously won't know unless he happens to be the owner. So there you go! What to do?
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    Horton
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 3,350 Mega Baller
    Perhaps the tournament should be required to post the specifications of the boat(s) being used. In addition to the prop, I don't believe I've ever known which engine option/horsepower they have either.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,602 Mega Baller
    edited July 2013
    @Ed_Johnson. you like the 422 on a 6 liter, might want to try a 668. Same size prop with just a bit more cup.

    I skied with a 6 liter Malibu yesterday and ran on B-2. normally C-1 on a Nautique 6 liter. Still dont like the plus mode, or cant figure it out.

    @MISkier Their are so many variables from site to site, boat to boat, Sea level to elevation and the fact that a lot of promo owners still really know nothing about their boat that posting propeller identification would probably cause more havoc and sniveling then we already have.



    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    ForrestGump
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,297
    @Jody_Seal......Does the 668 lower RPM at 34 mph..If so, how much ?

    Also, it seems the Guys that like the plus are the 200 lb plus class....They are so use to being punished by ZO and find the new Plus system gives them a little more time to get into the leveraged position...Seems to work best in A+ and B+.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,602 Mega Baller
    @Ed_Johnson. My 6 liter runs around 3650 RPM @ 34.2 with a skier on and a two person boat load with a 668. Have seen this with the last three 200's equipped with 6 liters and a 668.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,297
    @Jody_Seal...Thanks, that seems to me about 100 RPM less than mine...I would imagine the big deal being that the 668 gives a softer reaction to ZO, than the 654 does...That is what I felt with the 422, which is listed as the "Recreational" prop, so you would probably never encounter it on a Promo Boat anyway.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,309
    Ed, there are a ton of promo boats with the 422. It's now been certified at the boat tests. On ours, I keep it and 654 in the boat.

    I just got our 654 reworked and had them put the 668 cup in it. Looking forward to trying it.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    MattP
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,297
    @ShaneH....Thanks for the info Shane....Let me know how it changes the 654.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 837 Crazy Baller
    Rather than start a new thread, I thought I would bump this one...

    Finally got around to reading through Will's PPT presentation, very nice - lots of good information that clears up misconceptions for me.

    The one thing that I found most interesting is that the A and C setting are asymmetrical for the load and the release.

    I've been a longtime user of B2, but I'm thinking of experimenting with B1 and B3 for what I theorize could be a softer pull.

    I'm curious that no one has commented on the two different visual representations of ZO - Will's vs. Scoke's, which one makes the most sense to you?
    Anthony Warren
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    @ScarletArrow Do you have a link to Score's visual representation?
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 837 Crazy Baller
    @SkiJay

    Here the historical visual representations that were created by Dave Saaterfield and Shelby Coke.

    http://www.schnitzskis.com/zerooff.html

    IMHO...

    Dave's doesn't take into account the asymmetrical pull & release of the A and C settings.

    Shelby's seems to theorize "where" ZO increases the load, not "when" as was emphasized by Will's presentation.
    Anthony Warren
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,663 Crazy Baller
    I feel that Satterfield's chart is a better representation than Scoke's. I'm not totally convinced that A and C are asymmetrical.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 837 Crazy Baller
    @LeanL Why are you not convinced? Will's presentation was pretty specific about it.
    Anthony Warren
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,663 Crazy Baller
    @ScarletArrow, just by my feel, no more than that.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 1,101 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Just a little FYI.I was in the boat for most all of the Big Dawg and I can only remember 1 skier using plus
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    Thanks @ScarletArrow I'd mistakenly assumed that Will had simply included Score's chart in his presentation. I'd forgotten that Score's chart didn't show the asymmetrical component of algorithm. I'd like to see Will redo his chart to include the + settings to give us a visual on the relative differences presented by +.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,614 Mega Baller
    @Skijay - it's scoke (Shelby Coke), not Score...
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    Thanks @Roger. Stupid "smart" phone autocomplete, and stupider proof reader...
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,614 Mega Baller
    LOL, mine does the same thing and I also miss it often. Scoke might not mind the mis-spell in this case ;)
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,614 Mega Baller
    @skierjp - I think that's right, only one that I can remember also. Interestingly, the ones who have been using it this year in our tournaments at Okeeheelee have been slower speed divisions, men7, men8, etc. I wonder if when the speed starts dropping, this helps keep them from sinking so much?
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • scokescoke Posts: 769 Crazy Baller

    Great thread, I love that this education is still ongoing.

    An interesting point though, we are starting our 8th season on zero off! Isn't that amazing?


    Regarding my charts: We originally developed those for everyone to understand & enjoy. In my mind, I actually see/understand the charts more like Dave Satterfield's. His are more similar to say a load diagram integraled to a bending moment diagram. They make perfect sense BUT the intent was to get a publishable graphical representation of what the skiers felts.

    In an academia world, they are more representative.
    In the real world, if I stand up in the back of the boat, talk with my hands as I am known to do, i'll show the A comes on "HERE" then "B HERE" and "C HERE". It just makes sense to me and other skiers I have been around. There is no right or wrong for something like this. It's more about the lenses we see/feel the world in.

    The other thing is some people can feel things and some can't like water temp, viscosity, density, depth etc. Some skiers can feel different ZO settings and some can't. Some like brunettes, some like blondes.

    Either way, there are only two things in this world for certain, death and taxes.
    The_MS
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,602 Mega Baller
    @scoke No! their are three certainty's : Crap, die and pay taxes!

    2014 ZO update. Big changes for up coming year with the ZO program minus settings on the way! "NOT!" .
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    No Really as per the towboat meeting last week the ZO program to stay unchanged for the 2014 season.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,297
    Thats good news Jody...I LOVE the PLUS !!! Feels more like Perfect Pass to me..I have definitely gained buoys because of it, plus consistency.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,504 Mega Baller
    I think a lot of folks arent using plus because It is too complicated to upgrade so many ZO boats havent been upgraded so folks havent been able to try it.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,297
    A common result seems to be that the lighter, thinner skiers don't like it...While the bigger 200 lb and over Guys like it a lot.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
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