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Apex to wake

Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
One of the areas I am currently trying to figure out is the ideal "apex to wake " move.
i realise that most problems you see generally have their fault a while earlier, so for this particular problem I am assuming that we get wide and early with plenty of speed and are balanced more or less on the right place on the ski. What I see happening is that from the apex as we rotate about the handle and collect it many things can go amiss that change the balance point and allow the inside hip to drop back - which in turn causes the inside edge to engage more, weight to drop back, separation, tip rise and drag = early loading of the line, tug of war and coming up narrow to the next bouy / repeat.
What it seems that many of the pros do (the west coasters being the most obvious) is to somehow not only prevent their inside hip dropping back but actually take a much reduced angle into the wakes (leading with the inside hip the whole way - looks like the body is leading the ski initially) when the load comes on they are right on the first white water so it's much easier to advance the ski through rather than the tug of war we usually find ourselves in. Getting this right is obviously what counts as "light on the line". As the line gets shorter it becomes much more important to pick up the load later so this becomes critical from 35off.
Can you short liners shed any light on how you have developed this skill? I don't believe you can practice out of the course or on long lines as the dynamics, speed and timing of the course are important for this.
People I see doing this really well are:
Nate, Todd(the Editor), TW, Wim Decree, Drew Ross and Horton.
Like I said I don't think you can ski short line without loading the line later but these guys (at least on their onside turns) somehow noticeably keep the inside hip up, keeping the speed up and accelerating the ski through on hook up.
Is this another of those things that's a result of doing things right (like the reverse 'c')?

Look forward to your views.


  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,825 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @Deep11 Do you realize that you just put Nate, Todd, TW, Wim Drew and @Horton in the same mold of skier?
    Shut up and ski
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,287 Mega Baller
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited June 2013
    Excellent observation, @Deep11, but I'd offer that this most definitely CAN be practiced outside of the course, and may even be easier to practice outside of the course until it's somewhat committed to habit. Plus, if you want help with this move, go see Drew. The technique you are describing is a cornerstone of his teaching philosophy, and his focus on it starts a lot earlier than -35. ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    Thanks @skijay, I'd love to go see Drew but living in not so sunny Scotland limits coaching by the pros. For the last couple of years I've been doing video coaching with Seth which I can heartily recommend.
    Lately we've been looking at delaying the load at the gate by raising the inside hip and it was this that has had me looking at what the pros do and the observation that as the line gets shorter the load Is delayed further throughout the course. Drews BOS vid is a perfect example. In all cases the inside hip is kept raised delaying the finish of the turn - especially after a hard one.
    .ie the wider and earlier you want to get the later you need to load.
    I was hoping to get the views of the guys here as I'm sure others must have worked on this.
    @MS I stand by my listing of @Horton, as he really does consistently do what I am taking about ( watch the BOS vids) &, as I doubt any of the pros will chip in to this, I sort of hoped that Horton would.

    The lack of responses suggests that either no one here has worked on this, it's not that relevant or everyone's on the water!
    Can't believe there aren't more ski geeks like me interested in putting some thought to this.
  • 94009400 Posts: 644 Crazy Baller
    I've played with it and I'm surprised this didn't get more response. Terry Winter has a video titled counter rotation I think that addresses this. When I focused on hip alignment at the finish of the turn, I typically neglect it as I approach the buoy so what I try to do is get really good at driving the inside of my body out as I approach the buoy and then try to slide back in behind the handle.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,724 Administrator
    I am not sure what videos of me you are watching but I would like to drink with you. I have seen pink elephants but I have never seen me ski anything like what you are talking about.

    All that said, I am afraid you are trying to make this all too complicated. If possible you want ski back to the handle and not close your hips/shoulders to the boat. I believe that your shoulders should be a natural amount of open but your “junk” should point in the same direction as the tip of the ski.

    When you really take the load is a matter of argument. I believe Mapple says to get it all early. Others try to get farther to the inside. If you are not at shortline I think you want to just ski around and take the load when it gets to you.

    As for angle I know some pro skiers talk about skiing the correct line but that is a concept for the super elite. I want all the angle I can control. Sometimes I take more than I can control out of one ball at 38 but at my on side 2/4/6 I will take all I can get.

    I suggest that read what T$ has to say on a number of things (link below) and then reformulate your question.

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  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited June 2013
    @Deep11 Another Baller who is both very good at this and very aware of what he's doing with it is @matthewbrown:

    few years ago

    2013 ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,136
    edited June 2013
    Interestingly enough, you can see how Matt has refined his technique in the last few years since that slowmo video was taken. In fact, Matt told me the following about 30 minutes ago......... "Speed early and keep direction during edge change...they go hand in hand."
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    That top video of Matt is amazing, exactly what I am looking at - just need to know what he's thinking!
    the TF articles are really good - I hadn't see them before. To be clear it's not the usual discussion on countering that I am getting at, it's (for want of a another way of explaining it) the maintenance of the counter AFTER you collect the handle, in order to reduce the hit.
    I was concerned that it might be one of these things that is a result of something else, which from what Horton says may well be the case.
    To answer what vids i was looking at These photos show a really sharp turn (line loose), but no standing on the back of the ski or "hit" because of the maintenance of position. Doesn't happen on the offside. If you dropped the inside hip after collecting the handle i reckon you would achieve a whole lot more angle but it would be uncontrollable - which is what happens to me all too often.
    Just interested because I want to do this :) (and of course i enjoy thinking this stuff through).
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,385 Mega Baller
    @Deep11. Moving out of the apex with the body leading the ski doesn't result in taking less angle into the wakes it results in more. Besides that it is especially effective in helping you accelerate as soon as possible, thereby getting you back to and across the centerline sooner, thereby allowing you to take a better outbound path (wide and early) to your next apex.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • RichRich Posts: 272 Solid Baller
    The 2nd video of Matt is awesome. He is staying with his ski much better. More angle, less of a hole out of the apex. He is working hard at getting better. Take notes gentlemen!
  • DustyDusty Posts: 315 Baller
    During a clinic Marcus Brown was the first I'd heard advocate holoding trailing arm (the one coming onto the handle), pressure during the turn finish- That movement by itself seems to slide the hips towards course center and maintain energy through the turn. I wish I could actually do it!...
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited June 2013
    To move your hips (COM) inbound ahead of, or at least with your ski, it's helpful to already have them in that position BEFORE you feel the load from the boat . Check out this poor quality but excellent photo of Seth just past the apex of his off-side turn. He's clearly driving his hips forward on the ski and inbound from the ball-line with an extended rear leg. Check out how level his eyes are to the horizon too. Nice off-side!

    image ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
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