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ToddL Just watch this all winter

HortonHorton Posts: 28,995 Administrator

 

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ToddLWishallycatchris_loganSkiJay
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Comments

  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,823 Mega Baller
    You got that right!
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,823 Mega Baller
    Yeah... I'm almost there, NOT!

    I skied last Sunday for the first time since Oct 23rd, so I took it easy and kept the speed at 32 MPH for both sets. I had my video cam setup, so I got some very humbling video...

    Set 1: -15, then -22's. The sun glare was really bad to the point of losing 1-ball during the edge change. Threw my timing off going into the sun.
    Set 2: -22, then -28's.

    In both sets I was already getting fatigued after the 5th pass, so #6 was a waste.

    The video is all at 1/2 speed (except for the 2nd pass in set one into the sun).

    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • WishWish Posts: 8,013 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited November 2013
    That was one of my items on "..what did i learn this year..." thread. I could watch that over and over. In fact, I'm gonna hit play right now.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,681
    edited November 2013
    That video of TW is one I've watched over and over, its pure class and most mortals should watch and learn from it.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski - KD Platinum

  • gregygregy Posts: 2,583 Mega Baller
    @ToddL nice skiing considering the end of November.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,348 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Geez. Like many other top shelf skiers there are positions Terry is in that I cannot hope to emulate. He's well stacked into the wake...we discuss that, right?
    As he comes off the wake the ski and his knees get ahead of his hips where the rope remains pinned. As he gets a zing outbound off the wakes there is a moment where both knees are flexed nearly 90 degrees...he's still outbound, tight line, rope pinned to hip. This is true with other pro's, too.
    I don't know about you Ballers, but it's a lot easier for me to emulate the best into the wake than after the wake...and I believe what they do after the wake is key to separation from us mortals. My (lack of) personal talent aside...it's physically not possible for my body to make that move after the wake. Tough realization; I'm pretty limited in talent and physicality...at least the mind is willing : ) !! Gosh I hate personal realizations!
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    DanE
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,681
    @6balls I think your being a little hard on yourself. [email protected] is more than respectable.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski - KD Platinum

    Skoot1123
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,348 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited November 2013
    @ozski sorry I didn't word it the best. I mean my lack of talent and physicality as compared those better than me. I gun to be the best at everything I do and doggedly believe I can get there...but the course is humbling and creates a reality. To get better I need to emulate skiers like Terry's video above but great skiers like him do things that may not be possible for me as they have superior physicality and talent. I'll keep whacking away, but I see the reality of my personal limitations, too.
    The other point (that could be argued by others) is I do believe at short-line what the great skiers do outbound after the wake is SO critical and a big part of where the game is won. Terry does some things there I'm pretty sure I can't do no matter how many times I watch it or practice it.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • WishWish Posts: 8,013 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @6balls 90 degrees? He only uses that when the rope is longer. With that kind of leg power he could jump start a 747.
    .
    .image
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,681
    You don't need that type of leg action to run super short.... This is just the way TW goes about his business and one element of his style I personally place in the too hard basket. Jeff Rogers gets the job done also...



    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski - KD Platinum

  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,348 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited November 2013
    @ozski not as significant, but stop that vid at 36 seconds. Rope in tight, arms straight, front knee 90 degrees, back knee about 90 as well. Not as much as TW.
    Andy is there as well off the second wake...I'm never there.
    Cool video...love watching Jeff Rodgers.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,681
    Yeah I do agree with you 100% its wake to ball that sorts the men from the boys but at least you know what to work on.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski - KD Platinum

  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,823 Mega Baller
    Wake to buoy determines how you will be as you exit the buoy. How you exit the buoy determines how stacked and efficient you will be buoy to center-line. How stacked and efficient you are off the center-line determines what you can accomplish wake to buoy. Wake to buoy determines... you get the point. I think this is why getting the best pull-out, glide, turn-in, stack through the gates ends up setting the tone. It determines what happens wake to 1-ball and then the dominos either line up or start to fall apart one by one.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    Gloersen
  • TDLTDL Posts: 19 Baller
    My takeaway from watching Terry (with the help of a neighbor's coaching today) is to keep working off the second wake with my back arm even as I let off the gas. The image posted by @Wish shows how hard Terry is working even though he is no longer in a tug of war with the boat. My outbound trajectory seems to benefit more from a straight back arm off the second wake than Terry's technique would suggest.
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited November 2013
    Terry's elbows are bent after the second wake because he is pulling/holding his upper mass in towards the pylon, pumping the swing.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    @SkiJay - hmmm. Interesting observation. Has Terry ever coached you and said that ? I'd be surprised if he said that is what he is doing, but if Terry said it, I be willing to mull it over. I'm a skeptic at this point.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    There is an excellent wakeye video of TW showing a full set at full speed(which is great to balance with the one at the start of this thread) It seems to have been taken off their web site but someone here might have it?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,995 Administrator
    @SkiJay what?

     

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  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited November 2013
    @jimbrake @Horton I don't know if Terry has ever called it "pumping the swing," but that's what's happening. It's simple physics. And it's the significant amount of potential energy in this move that makes shortline skiing work best.

    It's the same thing that a figure skater does to add energy to the speed and momentum of their spin by pulling their arms in tight. Snow ski racers accelerate (add energy) through a turn by straightening their legs and forcing their mass towards the center of the turn. Pumping a swing on a swing set adds centripetal energy to the speed and momentum of the swing when the feet are forced closer to the fulcrum during the swing.

    When a skier keeps the handle in as tight to their body as possible, a move Terry excels at, the head, shoulders and torso are moved closer to the pylon (fulcrum) beyond the second wake (see photos below). This move takes significant strength, and most of that added centripetal energy is converted into speed and momentum. More generically, applying the same or additional energy to cover a decreasing distance results in acceleration, higher speed, and more momentum.

    When a water skier lets the boat take the handle away from their hips behind the boat, it's like a figure skater extending their arms to slow down the spin rate (constant or reduced energy spread more thinly over a greater distance).

    Terry doesn't have to call it "pumping the swing" to make it so. The majority of his mass (head, shoulders, and torso) is closer to the pylon at the outside edge of the whitewater than it is during his cut. He may or may not call it this, but I'll bet he's well aware of all the energy he is adding to his swing with this move.

    image

    image
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    gator1Skoot1123
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,995 Administrator

     

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  • gator1gator1 Posts: 591 Crazy Baller
    @skiJay.....uh, think I said that. Couple of times. See post "lets get our geek on". And, "who coaches this". So welcome to the club, every time I say it, I get "uncle" from OB, and electronic blank stare from the galactic leader.
  • gator1gator1 Posts: 591 Crazy Baller
    We discovered this move this spring, after hours of video viewing. Watch any elite skier. They all forcefully yank their trailing elbow into their waist, and keep it there until the rope gets loose. Nate lets go with outside hand earlier then most. But keeps elbow close to waist.

    The move also lifts them onto their front foot as they come out of the pulling position.

    It is a long way from "holding the handle past the edge change", or "handle management", or "keeping the elbows in"

    It is, simply, yank the trailing elbow to your waist as your pull goes away. Don't need to understand the physics.
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    I don't want to get off the rails with a snow ski technical analysis (OB, you're welcome), but that is not when or why a ski racer "straightens" their legs. A ski racer's legs lengthen after they release the energy in a flexed ski(s) allowing the skis to cross beneath the skier (short, bent legs) to the other side/edge (long, straighter legs) kind of like a, you know, that other sport, what's it called, you know, on the water. Aggghh, I can't think of it. Oh yeah! Slalom water skiing.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • SethskiSethski Posts: 133 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Some cool comments here. @skijay, great stuff. For what it's worth I consider Terry's technique the best in the business. If he were taller, we'd be watching his world records continually raise the bar. I think the biggest thing is staying stack and using that potential energy @skijay refers to to rocket his ski out to the buoy line and onto a distinct turning edge rather than fighting the force that is pulling him. @tbl I believe that another wY to say (and execute what you are referring to regarding the leading arm, is that he is skiing throughor out against that arm when he catapults himself out to the buoy line by using that @SkiJay refers to.

    Having said all that he may (probably) thinks of it totally different than what we all see, but I think what we have all mentioned has merit in examining the value I his skills/movements.

    Just my thoughts...

    Hope everyone is still skiing (I took 6 freezing passes in white caps today...have to dock start and spin most of them because I am a baby when it comes to the cold).
    Seth Stisher
    SethStisher.com for water ski training and all of your gear needs!

    "Follow your passion by pursuing your goals within that passion at all costs!"
    SkiJayMattPjipster43
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,995 Administrator
    ok @sethski I know you know what you're talking about but I still gotta say..



     

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  • WishWish Posts: 8,013 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited November 2013
    Let me see if I can summarize what I got outa this. Blistering speed and energy from white water to center. Maintain energy and speed by resisting with (right arm going right) lead arm (but really both just not equally) to the point where it looks like he is yanking in his arms and that does happen to some degree. Knees tucked up, de-weights the ski. Lower half of body and ski swing under him and away do the forces applied with lead arm pressure an pendulum affect (handle at waist as pivot point). Separation from handle occurs and he takes the handle/tight line to the fullest extent of it's arc through a controlled reach. Did I get it? Good stuff.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    6ballsozski
  • jedgelljedgell Posts: 355 Baller
    @wish Your explanation is how I understood it from Terry. He was at our lake for a couple days this summer for a clinic, what you described is basically what he had me working on. Coming off the second wake into 1, he had me pull my right arm in. By that I mean that he wanted me to resist the pull more with my right arm off the second wake. Felt great when I actually do it right. I get a much better swing from the boat and get wider.
    Justin Edgell - Bozeman, MT
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,995 Administrator
    I will occasional admit to being wrong but I rarely admit what I am wrong about. …
    I have gotten some off the forum notes from some pretty high end skiers that claim @Brewski and @Toddl are not completely wackadoodle in this thread. I still do not really get it but ….

     

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    ToddL
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,008 Mega Baller
    I don't think Terry is trying to pump. I think the swing comes from proper body position out of the buoy and holding that through the wakes. The arms bent that @SkiJay shows are in the pre-turn/deceleration phase and I believe are about controlling the rope into the buoy. I agree that there is centripetal force in action here but there isn't a conscious arm motion by Terry to enact it. The centripetal force is a by product of good fundamentals.
    Mark Shaffer
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited November 2013
    I'm not saying Terry is "trying" to pump, or that I have any idea what he's thinking. I'm just saying that what happens when the handle is held close into the skier's body beyond the second wake, which Terry is very good at, the effect is essentially the same as pumping a swing on a swing set.

    Terry is using a significant amount of strength to maintain such tight handle control as his mass is being drawn closer to the pylon (in the photos above, clearly his body is closer to the pylon off the second spray than it is during his cut). This expenditure of energy is added to the centripetal force of swinging around the pylon on a rope. And since maintaining or adding equal or more energy over a decreasing distance (decreasing radius) increases speed and momentum, it's exactly the same effect as pumping a swing.

    Don't hate the messenger. I'm not making this stuff up. I'm just applying Newton's third law of motion to obvious photographic evidence . . . oh, and wishing I could execute this move like Terry!
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
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