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Fluid Motion silveretta with toe block ?
Stevie Boy
Posts: 2,047 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
Has anybody got experience or views on the fluid motion silveretta with toe block, I like the idea of the toe block, but I do not like the idea of the metal on the front of the boot, if you release, is it likely to cause injury ?
When The Going Gets Tough, Get Stoked !
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In theory it is the heel ledge on silveretta boots which might hit you.
When The Going Gets Tough, Get Stoked !
The Revo I bought to use on a trick ski since the Wiley binding on it makes my foot feel like it will fall off.
Essentially all silvretta systems work on the following concept.
The heel release engages by being pulled forwards and clamping downwards till it "clicks" over the bar. This provides a force both forwards and down on the heel of the boot. How much force is dependent on a few factors such as the height of the heel ledge, and where the back of the boot is. But these two factors also depend on other things, such as if the boot flexes when you clamp it, or is rigid.
The Revo uses the older style Reflex 404 release, it uses a velcro underpad to prevent the heel from sliding on the plate, and it uses the toe block to center the boot, as well as adjust the position of the boot on the plate. Heel ledge is attached by FM at the height they recommend, I think this is 57mm
Reflex is the same concept, but uses a Horseshoe at the front, this doesn't slide, but you select holes to determine the length of the boot. There are templates for this online. The heel height is also measured the same, but again should be preset up for you as I recall.
I have not weighed the various systems, but suspect FM is a bit heavier than the Reflex or Quantum versions.
I suppose the FM plate increases chance of injury but i never had a problem
Goode / Centurion Boats
When The Going Gets Tough, Get Stoked !
About boot sizing.
FM has ~5 shells, they're in the XS-S-M-L-XL 35-46 european sizing concept. I would wager most folks pick the smallest one they can get by with, I have Lg's and could probably use Mediums, depending on the forming of the liners.
Reflex has ~5 shells, #'s 4 6 8 10 12 36-46 european
In reality any of these are long narrow fits, if you have a really super wide foot, even with forming the liners you may feel cramped and should invest in a padded suit and an outboard boat.
Goode / Centurion Boats
The Silveretta clip has left some good scars on my shin and I don't have that much time on the system. Wrap it in neoprene.
Use caution with changing temperatures. The boot softens enough with heat to substantially change the release. The stiff FM boot doesn't change as much but I don't care for such a stiff boot. Makes velcro not look so bad?
Nothing is perfect. Except Gatorade lids!
Eric
Eric
I have to change my binding, I ski with RTP, if I was two feet in, I would go with Radar or Ho Bindings, friend of mine just brought a pair of the new Ho Bindings and is very happy with them,
My medical team, who also water ski, have advised me not to ski with double boot.
When The Going Gets Tough, Get Stoked !
I'm on reflex currently and completely happy with the release. Just not so happy with the binding shell itself. It's fine. But the FM shell and liner blows it away in comfort.
The FM shells I've skied were adapted from hockey skates and were way too stiff for my taste - especially for slalom. Reflex and Goode shells are OK flex and the old Fogman shells felt great to me. Adapting skates is straightforward but plastic skates are getting harder to find now.
Silveretta clips are reasonably interchangeable. I've swapped the red ones for yellow no problem. They do break. The newest ones seem to last better. I don't know if it's a straight bolt in but adapting a new clip should be straightforward.
Every binding has issues. Reflex + rtp is one of the best setups. It might take some effort to optimize it for you (FM toepiece, Fogman shell, Intuition liner, carbon plate, etc) and a bit more maintenance but you should enjoy it.
Eric
Regardless I do not think the 404 vs the 500 would be a big concern for me, Jager is still selling 404 heels, when that ends I am confident that the 500 can be screwed into the aluminum plate just like reflex does (remember reflex was on 404 heels for a long while too).
Biggest thing with any of the silvrettas is that you need to make sure the heel of the boot is the right height for the unit to clamp, I suspect that the 404 release means that the heel ledge is bolted to the boot lower, so if you got a 500 release you'd probably have to bolt a shim under the heel to elevate the boot in order to clamp down.
FM's shells are pretty rigid, they get way softer after you drill out the hole under the cuff, and trim the plastic a bit, if you boil them with some dye to change the color (of the white ones) then they act softer. And if you use them awhile they get soft.
You can also grind on them to thin out the plastic a bit, and you can buy USD skate cuffs for a few bucks so if you trim the cuff for more flexibility and screw up you can easily replace the part.
The point being if you like playing around the FM offers lots of tunability, at a price of course - the Revo is about 540 the way you'd probably want it with buckles and the toe peice and a foam underpad.
The reflex can be had a bit less if you dont' want all the add on's. 460 ish I think with a liner, less if you want an intuition (you do).
Goode / Centurion Boats
Next verify the placement of the horseshoe and the release unit. You may need to pull the plate off the ski - again refer the the diagram in the reflex manual, make sure the horseshoe and the heel unit are in the correct holes on the plate.
When viewed from the side, the unit when clipped onto the boot should be leaned backwards slightly, it doesn't go vertical, and it doesn't lean forwards.
I'm 180, but I think my number was more like 3.
I did this by using my calipers with the bale open and had my wife push the boot down so it bottomed out on the plate. I measured from the bottom side of the plate to the top of the 3-point cleat.
Did you buy the boot separately than the release? I'm assuming by 3 point cleat you have a new boot, so you probably have a 500 release?
If you have a 404 then you'd probably have too much height due to the wrong boot.
Toss up some pics and I'll think about it a bit, Don't wanna recommend anything that won't work for one reason or another.
Do you notice it being any easier to engage the release unit at the heel?
@ShaneH, Not sure if my setup is different than yours but in 2012 things seemed to have changed, or at least the plate did. Maybe they changed the toe loop too. Bennett's knew right away what the issue was. This phone call took all of 3 minutes.
Being that the product comes off a retired line of snow ski/telemark/mountaineering bindings it is certainly being put to a different use.
Do you know if there is a dimensional difference between the metal bail and the plastic spring unit? Would the titinal frame be able to be screwed/rivited to a 404's base? Does the frame allow you to rebuild a 404 spring unit/cam onto the bail?
Regardless, I previously went up the "silvretta chain" meaning dynafit, and salewa shoes for a similar reason as most, wanting to find more information, service instructions etc. for these products, spare part sources (to avoid buying full release units) and it seems like even the 500's are no longer in production.
Waterski is a pretty small market, but it seems like folks bought up the stock previously.
Not sure what you mean with "the metal bail and plastic spring unit".