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Just call me Dr. Jim

Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
edited July 2013 in News & Other Stuff
I just did a "routine" remeasuring of a rope I used (and measured) last season, and have been practicing on exclusively this season.

It is 5" longer than actual at purple.

My entire perspective on my season has just changed. I am not a happy camper.
Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
Brady
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Comments

  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,319 Mega Baller
    Hello Dr Jim
    Mr. Mom is Horton's favorite movie!
    Than_Bogan
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,319 Mega Baller
    Jk, that's a bummer, masterline!!! No problemo
    Mr. Mom is Horton's favorite movie!
    JohnCox
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,097
    It happens to every manufacturer. At regionals a couple of years back, they had 10 masterline ropes that needed to be shortened. We've had long and short ones from Brenda. Like I said, you gotta measure. And then get out the fid if necessary.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    edited July 2013
    (deleted -- entirely false)
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • acmxacmx Posts: 239 Baller
    Kinda strange a year old rope got LONGER?
    Than_Bogan
  • BradyBrady Posts: 1,084 Mega Baller
    edited July 2013
    Mine always seem to stretch. :)
    I ski, therefore I am
    Skoot1123
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,583 Mega Baller
    @than_bogan that sucks, still don't think its as big of advantage as moving the buoys in. You think the braiding is slipping or is it stretching that much? I would think the material would be similar between manufacturers as far stretching.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,228 Mega Baller
    Then call me Dr. Short. I measured my rope and it was 9" short. New name brand rope last year, hardly used, so threw it on the pylon to start the year. During one of our 20-day rains, I measured it up and was surprised on how short it was under the minimum. Not a switch rope either. Always measure! I broke my golden rule.
    Than_BoganBrady
  • alex38alex38 Posts: 485 Baller
    How do you measure just one rope?
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,228 Mega Baller
    edited July 2013
    I loop it over a basketball pylon bolt that sticks out of the ground and I use a rope that I know is very close to actual. I also use a tape measure, like in this case when it was quite a bit different from my "standard" rope, and if I was just measuring one rope. Look up the AWSA rope diagram and subtract the standard handle bridle off the measures, or leave on if your handle is on spec. Mine are usually snugged up to the max, so I just take it off. I usually measure 35 and 38, as those can be bothered by a few inches. My rope was so far off,,I looked at all the loops,,and they were all off. I added an extra piece at the end and now it is good, but looks funky. I threw it in the rope locker as a backup.
    Page 92 of AWSA Rule Book.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,228 Mega Baller
    image
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,129 Mega Baller
    I think there is a solid argument that someone else should always spec/measure your stuff.

    As you say its your perspective that has been altered, despite the fact that the 5" may not actually have really changed your season. Had you had someone else check your rope, make the adjustment if necessary and say - "nah its about a half inch short" Then you wouldn't really have a complaint and probably would ski even better even with the shortened rope.
    Than_Bogan
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,228 Mega Baller
    I dunno, but having someone else measure my stuff just doesn't sound right!
    Texas6woolly110ski6jonesBrady
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,092 Mega Baller
    @AB find a friend that is a TC and have him or her do it. You must compensate them for their troubles with some beverages.
  • alex38alex38 Posts: 485 Baller
    edited July 2013
    I usually compare 2 ropes and if they match I deem them "good". So now I think they both could be off. What if I bring my house rope to a tournament and put it up against a boat rope?

    Or... My buddie has a nice Masterline, I could put it up against that and be reassured?
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,187 Mega Baller
    Only way to know for sure is to use a tape measure ( preferably metric) and measure according to the rule book. I wouldn't trust any other rope as a guide.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
    Than_BoganA_B
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,785 Mega Baller
    Don't forget, when measuring, to apply about 50 pounds of force to the rope. I believe that is the official spec. I loop mine over the trailer hitch and lean back at each loop while measuring with a long tape measure. I align the beginning of the tape measure and the rope by running a safety pin through the rope and the grommet at the beginning of the tape.

    I have measured my ropes from InTow and they have been good. My ski partners compared theirs to mine and discovered their ropes were long. This all started because they surmised my rope was short. They were quite surprised to find I was the accurate one.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    A_B
  • teammalibuteammalibu Posts: 904 Mega Baller
    edited July 2013
    Thats why we measure every rope we use at Cottonwood! Make sure you a steel tape it wont stretch!
    Mike Erb Cedar Ridge Canton Miss.
    Horton is my hero
    Than_Bogan
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,375 Mega Baller
    @MISkier simply "leaning back" on the rope to measure it will cause wildy different measurements. The official standard is 20kgs (44lbs) on the rope to measure it. Like @Kelvin said, the only way to know is to measure.

    We measured ropes at a tourament as a quick check the night before just incase we needed to make changes and thought all (4) our ropes were about 2" too long at some loops and even a bit short at others. Had a 115# woman leaning back against a handle with instructions to "put about 50#'s of pull on the rope". Same ropes the next morning, measured properly were well within tolerance and consistent at each loop.

    I've seen dozens of different ways to do it over the years but all have the same fundemental goal of putting 44#'s of "pull" on the rope. At Cottonwood (and others) they have a nice saw horse rack with exactly 44#'s of weight hanging from a cable. The cable loops over a pulley and has a snap clip on the end. Hook your rope to it and pull the other end until the weights are off the ground (helps if it's something stable like a car or golf cart or 4-wheeler rather than a person so it's static when you measure). Other locations we've hooked the rope to a trailer hitch and had a tie down strap on the other end around a tree. Put a decent (50#) fish scale in between and tighten to 44#.

    Important to note - when measuring (either with or without a handle, don't hook the end of the tape on the end of the handle. Handles are changed and all are different. Rather at the inside of the loop where you attach the handle, set the tape at 4'-11" (or 1.5m) and measure from there. Then make sure all the handles are 4'-11" in length +/- 1" (the tolerance used to be -4"/+1" but that changed a few years back).
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    MISkierA_B
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    @klindy -- Wait, they made the short end of the tolerance *tighter* at some point recently? That seems really silly. Why is there any short-side tolerance at all?? If my handle were 1.2" short of nominal and I got disqualified I don't think I'd be too happy!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,228 Mega Baller
    They are looking out for you Than. Be happy.
  • BradyBrady Posts: 1,084 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan. Like @AB was inferring, I wonder what else of yours is the wrong length? Hmmmmm, might be better to just guess and not find out for sure. You probably wouldn't want to add that to your disappointment level! :)
    I ski, therefore I am
    A_B
  • alex38alex38 Posts: 485 Baller
    for quick reference, would it be helpful to have a non-stretch type of measuring device/rope? something that would be quicker then tape and converting to metric and such? i know it would help me where I don't have the best tools or much time.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    I suggest buying a long metal tape and marking the nominals and ranges on it (perhaps on the back) with a permanent marker. This means you only have to figure out the metrics and such one time, and then can use it to measure ropes relatively quickly in the future.

    @AB I could see having a minimum on a tournament-supplied handle, but if you bring your own it seems pretty silly to DQ any handle that is short.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,375 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan yeah that changed probably 5-6 years ago. Maybe even more. I can't recall the details but very, very few professionally tied handles are too long or too short.

    If memory serves me correctly the 4" tolerance on the short side was initially intended to allow a handle to stretch as it's used. Of course customers would bark that their handle was TOO short if manufacturers started on the short side and expected it to grow. As the spec changed for the ropes the amount of stretch over time lessened. So, making the tolerance +/- 1" (rather than -4"/+1") actually raised product quality.

    In essence, the ropes are better and the techniques to tie handles also improved somewhat so holding that tolerance really isn't too difficult.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,375 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan agreed on not DQ'ing a short handle.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,228 Mega Baller
    There was a mysterious handle that disappeared after a Regional record years ago.... I wonder if they were concerned it was too short?
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    RETRACTION!

    Firstly I must apologize that I falsely accused US Gear (I have removed all such comments).

    The problem was, as it so often is, user error. I did something to fix my handle fairly recently that apparently wasn't quite right and it must have slipped at some point, lengthening by nearly 3". And I measured the rope from over the end of the handle for an added inch. So that turns my 5" error into about a 1.5" error, well within tolerance.

    I may still shorten the rope because I'd probably rather practice with a rope an 1" short than an 1" long, but the issue was all in the handle.

    AND it has only persisted for about 2 weeks, so only my recent triumphs are called into doubt.

    I think I'm most satisfied that now I understand wtf happened. The fact that my entire season hasn't been erased is a bonus...
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    BradyToddLSkoot1123
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,353 Crazy Baller
    I've got a 45 lb weight on a cable going over a pulley attached under a storage shelf in my garage. It just stays there. I hook my ropes(personal and tournament) to a snap hook in the cable and the other end to the trailer hitch ball on my truck. Pull the with off the floor and let it stand for ten to fifteen minutes, then measure with a metric tape. Back to the original post, at what point did @Than_Bogan measure the first time? I always ski a few sets on a new rope before I measure and adjust if necessary. Never find a change after that.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • skirayskiray Posts: 173 Baller
    I'm calling BS @Than_Bogan... Ain't no way a self proclaimed MIT slalom addict nerd didn't inspect every loop and inch of that rope to determine the issue prior to posting. Much less 24 hrs later. Did "The Man" get to you? Fight the power Bogan!

    All kidding aside, it does suck when you figure out your $90 rope is a cheater. Seriously, how much extra would it cost to buy one that is accurate upon delivery...
    Ron Ray
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