Fins & Wings

MattPMattP Posts: 6,357 Mega Baller
edited December 2009 in Skis Fins Bindings
Fins & Wings
I think this is a topic that I do not see come across the forum that often and now that the season is slowing down here I have been thinking about what else is there out there to help the skiing along for next season. So what are yalls thoughts?
What are the different materials used out there?
What different hole patterns on fins how does the pattern change how the ski reacts?
What are the different fin shapes and what are their effects on the ski?
What different wing sizes and effects on the ski?
What are the different wing shapes how do they react?
I know that I just asked a lot.....

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 32,809 Administrator
    <p>
    Matt you have stumbled onto the exact topic that got this forum and web site started.  . . . Since I think I know less every year I am going to be quiet and see what everyone has to say.
    </p>

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  • <p>
    Matt -
    </p>
    <p>
     I was thinking of starting a thread on this very topic.  Great minds must think alike.  To set the record straight, I use a schnitz speed slot fin.  It's thinner than the standard D3 fin.  It also feels a lot faster.  I'm guessing that Schnitz is correct in that there is "zero parasitic drag" because the wing is not bolted on and that's why it feels faster.  I would like the option of having a different wing angle than 9, but alas it's not a choice. 
    </p>
    <p>
    My understanding is that different hole sizes, counts, and locations releases some of the pressure of the turn.  But how much is too much?  How much is not enough?  I'm betting it's a feel thing that varies from person to person.  I'm somewhat surprised that there aren't any/more (?) weight and speed specific fins and wings available.  That there aren't tells me it's not important - but I've been wrong before.
    </p>
    <p>
    And thus doesn't the conversation turn to materials used?  But like everyone else, I don't know what a carbon fin gets me in comparison.  I don't know what a Jager CR fin gets me.
    </p>
    <p>
     And what about the fin block?  I can certainly understand weight savings and ease of adjustment as being extremely important.  Does anyone have an opinion on what works versus what doesn't for you?  I'm admittedly not a tweaker.  I set it at standard settings and only move it if something is dramatically different.
    </p>
    <p>
    I'll be looking at this thread with interest......
    </p>
  • Bill GladdingBill Gladding Posts: 109 Baller
    <p>
    I use two different wings on the skis that I ride.  I bought a thin stainless wing from Schnitz that is shaped pretty much like the average aluminum wing that comes on every ski I have ever owned or seen.  Because it is thin stainless it has narrow profile and even more so after I removed the stamping imperfections and excess machine bolt material.  It worked well on my 69" Sixam but not on the 67.5 Sixam.  I tried it on the A1 but just couldn't like that ski other than it was very predictable (stopped before I could get to four ball at -35 almost every time).  It likes being on the 68" MPD. 
    </p>
    <p>
    I think the narrow stainless wing allows a slower ski run a little faster from the second wake out.  So, if you have a ski that needs help shutting down to change directions stick with the thicker aluminum wing.  If the ski won't go to the finish of the turn without hanging up or getting too slow then use the thinner wing.
    </p>
    <p>
    Where does the wing fall in the adjustment scheme of things.  Locate bindings stock, set fin stock, install wing stock; then, tinker in that order until it works for you.  After you are done, go back, make some changes and see if there is room for improvement...
    </p>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,879 Mega Baller
    but don't forget to write down your settings/changes for future reference
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • kdeupserkdeupser Posts: 51 Baller
    <p>
    You know, with all the binding and fin adjustments we make ya all of that is fine and dandy but I am surprised that we do not hear more people sanding, filing bevels like Kris LaPoint or Andy Mapple.  Ya it destroy's the ski kinda for resale, and you can roast a ski if your not careful.  But if Andy Mapple was in the boat and said "You know, I could really help your offside" how many of us would say no?  Not me, grind away.  And you know, I guess in my old age I would expect more highend skiers to be filing and sanding more as well.  I would also think that it could "help" resale value.  Which would you rather have, a bone stock shinny ski or one that ran me through my PB that had been worked on by X.  If our styles were similiar give me the worked on one.  No brainer.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    Maybe more of this goes on than I am aware?  Just surprised is all.
    </p>
    <p>
    Ya know it's like motorcross.  Would you rather a bone stock bike, or a "Works" bike.  The two look the same, but they are worlds apart different.  
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    my .02,
    </p>
    <p>
    Ken d.
    </p>
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,012 Infinite Pandas
    edited December 2009
    <p>
    Ken, many modern skis have very thin layups on the bevel. They also carry a structural load. Even one who loves his grinder stays away from the edge bevels with the grinder on a factory ski.
    </p>
    <p>
    But adding some lightweight Bondo or Superfil gives me material to work with and I will happily grind that. This is a safe way to sharpen the bevels. I like to start with a sharp bevel and soften (round) it to taste. My skis have edges that can be seriously ground - and the grinder is part of the tuning. But in a reasonably well designed ski, more effect can be had by fin adjustments (or replacement). Actually fin adjustment is a larger effect than huge changes in the ski's shape!
    </p>
    <p>
    With that said, the designers have done a reasonable job on the fin numbers. Practice more is probably more valueable than tweaking the setup.
    </p>
    <p>
    Rocker seems to me to have the greatest effect on a ski's feel. Unfortunately, this is not a skier tunable variable.
    </p>
    <p>
    Personal favorite fins are the old HO pacman fin and a soft Carbonfin (no idea what number). I run them as shallow as possible until the ski starts to skip out in the turns. I like big wings as angled as possible before the tail gets unstable (between 9 and 12 degrees). If you are trying an unknown fin/ski combination this rough setup works reasonably well - if you have my retarded style...
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • kdeupserkdeupser Posts: 51 Baller
    <p>
    Hey Eric, I see what your saying but when I watch Andy Mapple's video he isn't really removing alot of material.  Just some mild sanding with 400 to 600 grit sand paper.  This isn't a huge change, but it will rough up the finish of a ski.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    What has me thinking of this is my 2007 Monza that I am on.  I have tried the stock fin, the Schnitz Speed Slot Fin, and I am now using one of John's Carbon fins that I bought from TW.  The Speed Slot Fin made the most drastic change.  I haven't been able to ski the Carbon fin much since it's been so freekin cold here in Atlanta(what happened to global warming?".  My problem start's at 32' off, the ski either over initiates the turn or under initiates the turn.  I have found it to be related with how aggresive I preturn.  It just seems if I knew how to modify the bevel some, I could get that some where in the middle I am looking for.....but currently if I don't edge change quickly and firmly, if I just roll on edge nice and smooth, the ski will stay in the edge change position till I bleed speed, before it will begin the turnin.  I've done it so much now, I can describe it to a "T".  I've ran more 32's now, but I have to really pay attention, the feeling is like a chine lock with an open bow boat.
    </p>
    <p>
    Thanks,
    </p>
    <p>
    Ken
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,012 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    Ken, don't give up. Put a thin layer of Superfil on the edge (1 - 2mm). The Superfil is blue and your ski is probably black. You can file on the Superfil until you see black. You do need to make changes in significant and visible amounts to change the feel. Better than that, you can work on just one side.
    </p>
    <p>
    Small changes with 400 grit will make a change kind of like changing the fin .001. Realistically you can't feel that. Significant edge changes will change the feel.
    </p>
    <p>
    To Andy's credit, changing textures might make a difference in feel.
    </p>
    <p>
    Try the Superfil and have some fun.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
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