It's no secret I've been cycling the last 9 months. And started road racing this year. And while I was at a stage race this weekend with SkiDawg and his family, it really became clear to me an issue we have with competitive skiing. There isn't anything competitive about what we do any longer at 95% of the tournaments. Here I am with
@skidawg , one of the best MM slalom skiers in the world and a ridiculously good mountain bike racer. and we're racing against each other because he'd never ridden a road race event and I've only got a few races in. Huh. So I'm not racing against the Pro's or semi-Pro Cat1 or Cat2 racers, I'm racing against 25-30 other Cat5(the racers with less than 10 race starts) who are all peddling their a$$es off so they can beat anyone they can in our Category. There were racers that were 18 and racers that were 48 in our three Cat5 races(Road Race, Time Trial, and Crit) over the course of the weekend. And if a Woman Cat 4(the equivalent of Men Cat 5) wanted to race with the Men in Cat5, she could. And if a Junior wanted to Cat up and race with the Men Cat 5s, he could. And it was a freaking blast. As have the other USA Cycling road race events that I've been to.
Purely Age based divisions in Waterskiing need to go the way of the dinosaur. Soon.
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I have to agree with Shane that it is much more rewarding competing in ability based divisions vs. age based divisions. Plus the amount of time spent at bicycle races vs. water ski tournaments is a consideration. For example, I can complete a 50 mile race in a little over 2 hours whereas I would sometimes spend 10-12 hours sitting around to get 3 slalom rounds in.
I haven't completely retired from water skiing, yet. But it is definitely now my 2nd favorite summer activity. Something needs to change in the sport to renew my enthusiasm.
As far a competition goes, were you and @skidawg really competitive, even in the CAT5? You guys were there at the end, sprinting for the win? If so, very impressive. But I bet you guys weren't. And once you advance to CAT4 bet you won't be competitive initially there either. I used to race bikes back in college. I would say 90% or more of the field was not really "competitive", there were only a couple guys capable of pulling the win. Takes time, work and experience (lots of races) to get to be one of the ones capable of winning. Takes lots of time not being competitive to become competitive, kinda like skiing.
Biking has advantages over skiing such as cost and access. Bikes are a lot less expensive than a boat and roads to ride are everywhere. I've seen crit's held in parking lots, big lots, but parking lots. Hence more participants in biking. Most local ski tournaments there are too few people with too wide a range of abilities for straight up competition.
I love to ski, snow or water. I like to ride. I will always ski as I love being out and doing it, even when it's bad it's good. For me riding is fun but not fun in the rain, in the wind, in the cold. So I consider myself a skier and do not consider myself a biker. I ran 35 all three rounds in a tournament this weekend but got beat by a guy into 39. Those 35's were a big deal for me. I felt good about that even though I didn't win. Better than if I had gone down at 35 and won.
I think many of us agree that nat's can be a royal pain in the ass, so make that one tournament per year for someone my age. If you're wondering about state tournaments, in TN there are usually only around 3 B3 slalom skiers... not much competition.
@BRY skidawg killed it in our time trial. Came in 2nd only to an olympic class athlete who's now crosstraining into cycling. Not to mention, his time beat half the CAt1/2/3 and Masters field. And I don't think I am comparing apples and oranges. It's only been in the last 15 years that skiing became like the time trial. In the 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s it was way more about competition. Of course, there were more skiers then too. You have to evolve the format and rules to keep relevant and keep the level of competition up and we've not done that in skiing.
We just ran a clinic with Trent at our site this weekend and there were skiers of all levels and all ages. Youngest being 11 and oldest being close to 60. Ironically the 11 year old was way farther ahead in his abilities than the older fellow is. But both came for instruction to become better skiers.
There was lots of conversation on the dock and something that really got me thinking was - there is quite a few people here who started skiing early as kids and quit for various reasons, and others who hadn't started skiing until the were much older.
I personally am almost 49 years old and just started chasing those damned orange balls just a little over a year ago. Through the help of great ski buddies at my site and the exceptionally good coaching of guys like Trent and Seth I have seen great improvement in my own personal skiing. Am I a good skier? Hell no but I'm trying to get better.
With that said why the hell would I want to go to a tournament and ski against guys solely based on my age rather than my ability? I can't compete with a guy who runs deep into 28, 32, 35, 38, and deeper than that. I can however compete against anyone who can ski around what my level is; and currently that is 22 to 28 off at 32 mph. Again I am working to get it up to 34 mph in the future.
I would really like to see a database and a handicap system that mirrors golf to some degree. If you are a scratch golfer you're going out in a golf tournament to play with and compete against players of your ability not Tiger Woods, regardless of your age.
I could care less if I was sitting on the dock with a 15 year old, 25 year old; if they skied at the same level I do based on a handicap - that's true competition. We all go off the dock trying to beat each other and improve ourselves based on that ability.
I really wold love to do the tourny thing! I like meeting new people and sharing my own passion for this sport. But when they call my name and I'm next up on the dock and have to follow a seasoned 49 year old dude that just ran 38 at 34 mph and the when the person handing me handle says "Good luck that's the score and the guy you need to beat" ............... think I'll just ask for my handle back and go home because there is no competing in that for me.
And more than anything...................... it's NOT FUN!!!
One will always strive to be a better skier as people who play golf strive to lower their handicap. Some days are good on the course and other not so good. But they keep playing to get better, and competing against someone at the same ability & level as yourself is competing regardless of age.
I am - are you?
But I do have one maybe-not-so-minor point to add to this: There is no reason that ratings should stand in the way of any of this. Regardless of how the divisions are organized, all of the absolute scores can still be recorded. And even if your mentality is purely ratings chasing, it may be nice to ski in a group with similar ability for the inspiration, camaraderie, and learning from each other.
So I wonder if we can make an easy step toward Shane's Utopia with the trivial change of setting the running order based on ability?
@ShaneH You say "It's only been in the last 15 years that skiing became like the time trial. In the 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s it was way more about competition." So what about the rules, format and/or participants has changed that make that so?
Saturday I drove for an hour to a tournament that started a little after 8 and ended a bit after 4, drove an hour home with a couple hours of sunlight to hang with the wife on our dock. I skied 3 rounds slalom, a round of trick, judged, scored, met some people I hadn't met before, hung with some friends I hadn't seen for a while, had some great discussions about technique with knowledgeable and capable people and received some great pointers for my own skiing. Only time I was bored all day was the drive to and from the site, buzzing down the freeway. All in all a great day.
I'm not trying to attack you guys or cycling. I do think cycling fundamentally is different. 3 event skiing is fundamentally one person at a time, putting up a score. Always has been, blessing and a curse for the sport.
There is a lot of bashing of skiing on this board, some justified but much of which I think is unfounded. I feel the conversations and tone on this board about tournaments is negative. Lot, I can say thousands, of people like them or why else would they come time and time again? I don't want people lurking on this board who are on the fence about tournaments to get turned off from even giving one a try.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Additionally, I believe alternate formats can be pursued with approval from EVP.
One year we superimposed head-to-head as well, which was pretty clever by tournament organizer @MikeT (but personally wasn't my thing). The idea was round 1 was qualifying, round 2 the top eight faced off in pairs [just on paper; no change to the tournament schedule], round 3 the remaining 4 did so, and then -- as an exhibition only -- the final 2 went out again to crown a champ.
@brody Sounds like a fun tournament! And you had lots of participation! But you speak in past tense, so it no longer is held? Why not? Hard to believe ratings killed it... You should put one on this year, lot's of summer left!
@skihard Your the kind of guy tournament skiing needs to capture. You have passion for it and are going to ski with or without tournaments. I think some sort of handicap is an idea with real promise. Current ranking system could stay in place nationally but the handicap for direct competition locally. But how? That might be a good topic for it's own thread.
I had a similar experience. My first tournament after moving to Florida I followed a guy who got .5 @41. I don't have a 41 loop on my rope. But I thought it was cool, getting ready with someone like that on the dock, chatting with them and listening to what they are thinking about. Then I went out and was 1 buoy short of my PB at the time. Walking back some people I didn't even know said "good skiing". It was a good day.
For those who want ability base tournaments there is this INT thing. http://www.intleague.com/ They have been around a while and haven't taken over skiing so maybe ability based isn't the answer to growing participation. Not my cup of tea but for those who want that, there it is, ready to go! I have some friends who love it. Not one in your area? Give them a call, they would love to help you put one on. Kinda what they do...
Tournament skiing can no longer be called Competitive skiing, except in a few situations. Which is a shame.
1996 Malibu Echelon
I would suggest AWSA move the contact "the competition department" to the top of the first page of the sanction events section. Start with the contact, and let the people who know what they are doing take it, to start with.
Outside of that, like I said, there are a lot of very knowledgeable resources here that could help and know the rules.