Trick Skiing Scoring Rules Change Idea

MattPMattP Posts: 6,359 Mega Baller
From Aliaksei Zharnasek's Facebook Page. What do the trick skiers here think of this idea? @eleeski @elliehorton

Aliaksei Zharnasek:

Hey just throwing some ideas for trick scoring system. Interesting what you guys think!? Sorry if my english is not very clear.
Trick Skiing Scoring Rules Change.
1. Proposal to weight every judge's vote in the final score, so the final score will reflect better the skier’s performance. Current scoring rules in trick skiing allow to score the trick only if majority of judges gave the credit on that trick. In the proposal to change the current rules we hope to find the way to better evaluate every trick that was performed by giving the partial points as well as full points of every single trick value based on every skier's tricks sheet submitted by judges. How it will work. Every judge’s vote will be given a certain percentage towards valuing each trick in the skier’s pass. The percentage will be based on how many judges are scoring the trick pass. In the case of total of 5 judges, every judge’s vote will have approximately 20% of the full trick value. Therefore every decision will have a certain impact on the skiers’s final score. Chief scorer will have to input in the computer every C and N/C for every trick and computer based on certain formula(3 or 4 or 5 judges) will calculate the final score. As right now the process for scoring each pass will differ only by computer formula that produces the final score and the change would not affect dramatically the scoring routine.

2. Purpose of this proposal. Major idea behind it is to bring better system to more precisely evaluate the level of the skier’s performance. With the system that we have in place right now there is a big chance of creating significant disproportions in scores based only on a difference in one judge decision especially for high value tricks. Also system like this will push judges to improve their knowledge and understanding of a trick execution since every judge will be personally responsible for skier's final score, and will face challenges to prove their views. But the biggest issue with the scoring system we have I think is stopping kids from competing in the trick event. I think everyone will agree if the skier did not fall on certain trick and did receive at least one credit it’s very unfair to get absolute 0 points for that trick.


  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,422 Mega Baller
    I saw this on Facebook and hoped someone had moved it here, thanks @MattP

    I agree with the change as it relates to scores, I think all trickers would have a more consistent score on their standard passes. It would also be more enjoyable for early skiers because they'd find themselves with fewer 0 score runs

    Only potential problem is it puts even more scrutiny on judges. In a smaller segment of a small sport it is already difficult to have enough qualified officials and if you put in place a rule where the judges might need to be even better it could become hard to find enough officials. much higher level of accountability per judge.
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,396 Historical Baller
    Interesting concept that would be a major change. Although, in the Back When, judges had the
    option to take 10% or 20% off for a trick not done correctly, as well as the full No Credit. That
    would have become impractical when trickers started going at a pace about one trick per second.
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,012 Infinite Pandas
    I believe that with quality view that video offers plus the single allowed review, 10% or 20% deductions for form breaks would be easy to judge. Alaiksei's judging average is even more important in this situation.

    The real problem with trick judging is the all or nothing judgments. A panel of strict (or loose) judges will still give a skewed score regardless of how the scores are weighted. Allowing partial credit will make scores much more consistent. The strict and loose judges will both see the same faults. If partial credit is an option, chances are both will agree on partial credit even if they disagree on all or nothing.

    It's interesting that the world's best tricker is exploring judging reform.

  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,359 Mega Baller
    From Facebook- Trying to some info all in one place. Some of the best coaches and trickers in the world are chiming in the subject.
    Camilo Espinel:

    Aliaksei Zharnasek, If we can change anything in our sport, it should be a change that makes our sport more exciting to watch, more fun to train for, and more rewarding to do as a profession. I would like to urge you into requesting a few changes so our sport can progress: 1)NO FLIP LIMIT. 2)REVERSE SPINS ALLOWED AT ANY TIME IN A RUN INSTEAD OF HAVING TO FOLLOW THE ORIGINAL SPIN. 3)ADD NEW TRICKS TO THE BOOK WITHOUT SO MUCH DELAY. 4)DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN INSIDE THE ROPE FRONT FLIPS AND OUTSIDE THE ROPE FRONT FLIPS.
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,396 Historical Baller
    About # 2 above. Pretty much impractical without a lot of video review. WO at the beginning of
    the run; RWO near the end of the run. Or was it a reverse? I have seen credit given for 'reverse'
    tricks that weren't, such as doing the 'reverse' off the other wake, but counterspun.
    This idea was first brought up by a Rules Committee member some 40 years ago. Never went
  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,409 Mega Baller
    Simple solution to that, @Edbrazil ... Make them independent tricks and add a direction notation to the end of the trick WOL WOR, BFlCC, BFlCW.
    Is it time to ski, yet?
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,012 Infinite Pandas
    Camilo is a sharp guy and a great coach. But I'm not sure I agree with any of his points.
    1) Tricking is more than just flips. The six flip limit is completely arbitrary and has no rational basis but it does force skiers to work on something other than just flips.
    2) Allowing reverses at all is a bit repetitious. Spreading them through the run is just plain confusing - to the spectators, the judges and the flow of the run.
    3) OK, I fully agree with this. Except the newest trick added BFLSLBB (mobe back to back ski line back) looks exactly like a BFLBB (mobe back to back). Yeah, zoomed in and slomo it is different and the degree of difficulty to perform it is extreme but without warning, I'd never see the difference - nor would a spectator. Minute flip variations make wakeboarding a bit weird (was that a whirlybird or a scarecrow?) and a bit hard to understand. Certainly there are some fun tricks needing approval (T7BB, all the one footed ski lines that were mandated away, points for grabs of other flair and some basic wakeboard friendly items) that should get approved quickly.
    4) Who cares whether a front flip is inside or outside the rope? As long as it looks like a front flip, it's a front flip. The current rule is now great.

    Still, Camilo's " If we can change anything in our sport, it should be a change that makes our sport more exciting to watch, more fun to train for, and more rewarding to do as a profession." is as insightful and spot on as anything said.

  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,396 Historical Baller
    Would be interesting to see what runs would look like if the flip limit was removed. Might be an
    option for an experimental tournament. The Masters used to do experimental stuff, like the
    5 1/2 ramp, shortened SL endgates, continuous slalom.
    I expect that we'd see a full pass of flips or nearly so. Then, what for the other pass? Only a
    few toes and then a lot of spins and ski lines? More flips? To the uninitiated, a toe pass looks
    a lot like: unwind, wind up, unwind, wind up, unwind, wind up...etc.
  • gsm_petergsm_peter Posts: 854 Crazy Baller
    Stupied question??
    Is there any defined / allowed toe hold flips?
    If not I would find them very advanced.
    Life is too short not to enjoy every day!
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,396 Historical Baller
    Somewhere, sometime, someone posted about a toe flip. Might have been Leforestier. As I
    remember, would have started out of a wrapped Toe O position, and have been a flip with 1/2
    or full twist. Sounds like a very hairy trick, and you'd better have a good release person.
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 2,877 Mega Baller
    How about adding a third trick pass on a wakeboard for a big air wow factor? Like you wrote @Edbrazil some posts get a little wacky as the season fades away.
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,396 Historical Baller
    Bring back Mixed Doubles! At one time, it was a 4th event. Was a good opportunity to find
    someone and get out on the water, go over the ramp, run the SL course, and do some semblance
    of doubles maneuvers. Discontinued after 1966.
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,422 Mega Baller
    I don't think straight flips would happen because I think you reach a crossover point where the remaining flips are not worth as many points as your most advanced spins

    I don't think toes would die because toe tricks are about double their hands versions. My guess is you'd see 9 flips into line tricks on hands and then the same toes run as always.
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,012 Infinite Pandas
    Alaiksei's toe pass looks a lot different from unwind, wind. The power and hugeness of the spectacular toe steps and big toe wake tricks is awesome. (Reward toe wake tricks more to encourage runs filled with cool toes?)

    I'm not a good flipper but I've been reasonably close to a toe flip. But I started with my toe foot on the back of the ski - absolutely against the rules now but it used to be legal. I never got far enough to try a back landing but that might be easier. None are in the books yet.

    Two footed toes were fun and exciting. Not magic and I only saw a couple in tournament. Definitely should be legal again.

    Hopefully a toe flip won't count against the six.

    Regarding the six flip rule, that's only an IWSF rule. College skiers often have runs with more than six flips. OK, it's rare but I've called several. Not difficult or confusing or overly dominant. But those runs are weaker than Aliaksei's run with all the cool ski lines - but most runs are weaker than his.

    While it is hard to fit our current tournaments in daylight, mixed doubles would be so much fun. Great idea.

  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,409 Mega Baller
    @eleeski two footed toes?
    Is it time to ski, yet?
  • elrelr Posts: 355 Mega Baller
    I like Aliaksei's proposal as a way to implement partial credit. Straight entry of judges pink sheets should not take more scoring time than reconciliation.

    I can see removing flip limits but ONLY WITH A WHOLESALE RE-EVALUATION OF TRICK VALUES.
    I think that currently flips are overvalued vis-a-vis other tricks. For instance I think that T5F (350) TWLBB (480)/TWLO (480)/SL5s (550) are substantially more difficult to perform than BFL (500). I think I would work on values and scoring reverses (T[W}B = RT[W]B really?) rather then limits. Set the point values properly and limits can be removed.

    IMO a high end toe pass is the most crowd engaging part of 3 event - at least it was for me the first time I saw one.

    Ed Rink - LSF Texas

  • jcampjcamp Posts: 980 Mega Baller
    Not to derail this thread, but can anyone point me to a good video tutorial on learning your first flip?
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,065 Mega Baller
    @jcamp are you learning to trick?

    Mark Shaffer

  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 2,241 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    Eric, I'm sure this isn't the first time you've heard this.....but WTF? Two footed toes? Are you getting confused with 7 toed feet?
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
  • bbirlewbbirlew Posts: 180 Baller
    I'd disagree about your comment that minute differences in wakeboard flips make it a bit weird.

    The names are a bit funny but in my opinion the tricks are quite easy to distinguish.
    Perhaps you chose a bad example but a scarecrow is just a toe side front roll to revert, whereas a whirlybird is a tantrum (laid out back flip - think back flip off a diving board) with an overhead frontside 360.

    Most wake tricks fall into a base invert (back roll, front roll, back flip, front flip) and then add frontside or backside spins to them. Of course in wake you can approach the wake toe side/heel side, and riding regular or switch(backwards). (Same as tricks)

    Then, give them a goofy name to confuse the old people!
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,012 Infinite Pandas
    @dchristman @Bruce_Butterfield Two footed toes = put the toe harness on, grab the webbing, pull slack, step toe foot with harness on top of rear binding, execute big air trick, land solely supported by toe harness.

    I remember playing with TW5F out of the two footed approach. Cool trick that was lots of fun. Spectacular to watch - a few of the skiers would start with it. The sport lost a bit when those tricks were outlawed.

    @bbirlew Sorry, I don't remember the names. I skied for a while with some advanced wakeboarders. They were really talented and the tricks were cool. But too often the tricks with different names were basically the same tricks with a minor variation (wrapped vs handoff mobes?). Maybe it is an old guy name thing. Maybe there were just too many flips. Really, for me, it was that there was no flow between the related tricks.

  • jcampjcamp Posts: 980 Mega Baller
    @Chef23 I'm a nationally ranked trick skier :-)
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,396 Historical Baller
    Mike Morgan used to do a TW5F in the manner that @eleeski describes. Wrap for a TWO, put
    the towing foot on the rear of the ski, turn back into the line while holding the line. Then
    approach the wake from outside in, let go of the line, and execute the trick.
    That method was quickly outlawed; maybe the next year.
  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,409 Mega Baller
    @jcamp this is the only free video I have seen:

    Other than that the only other video I have seen for flips is the Joel Wing video. I think the best thing is probably a live tutor!

    @eleeski I thought you had something more exotic in mind with the "two foot toes" :smile: Now I remember why I had that flimsy rear toe-piece on my old ski - so I could stand on it. Seems like it should be about the same as a WL5F. I remember skiing in the wrapped position for the TW5F, but I don't think I ever grew the, um, backbone to go for it. Now I'm leery of the WL5F.
    Is it time to ski, yet?
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 680 Crazy Baller
    Why force toes on people, or encourage incorporation of more? If they are a big initiative of change, make them their own separate event. I for one do not feel toe tricks are necessary, and will never encourage anyone to do them. Athlete's futures have been ruined by attempting toe tricks.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 3,024 Mega Baller
    I want to clarify my understanding of the proposal.

    Under this proposal during a class C trick event with the traditional 3 trick calling judges, would the following be true?

    Trick # 1 - worth 150 points
    Judge #1 - gives credit , 150 points / 3 judges = 50 points towards score
    Judge #2 - gives credit, 150 points / 3 judges = 50 points towards score
    Judge #3 - no credit, 0 points / 3 judges = 0 points towards score
    Final score for Trick #1 = 100 total points

    Trick # 2 - worth 300 points
    Judge #1 - no credit, 0 points / 3 judges = 0 points towards score
    Judge #2 - gives credit, 300 points / 3 judges = 100 points towards score
    Judge #3 - no credit, 0 points / 3 judges = 0 points towards score
    Final score for Trick #1 = 100 total points

    Is this what is being proposed?

    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
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