Current Promo Boat Rules

Chef23 · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

What support do the boat manufacturers really give to the ASWA in exchange for the 2 year rule?

brettmainer · August 2016

Other (explain)

Tournament skiers cannot expect handouts from boat companies. Tournament skiers need to put more thought into where they buy their boats and ski equipment.

Using the Colorado example cited above, who is making it worth Tommy's and Malibu's while to continue with their support? Somebody needs to step up and buy that Malibu (this is coming from a Nautique promo team member who still has his 2016 boat for sale). Maybe they were going to wait another year, maybe they were going to try to save a few $ and get a several year old Carbon Pro or 196. Hell, maybe they are looking at buying my boat. No. Somebody in the area should buy that Malibu so it doesn't just sit at Tommy's as a reminder of why not to support tournament skiing. Tommy's support should also be remembered when buying miscellaneous equipment. Maybe you can save a few dollars on your board shorts, sunglasses, gloves, etc. by shopping online or at some massive national retailer who cares nothing about skiing. If you can afford the couple of extra dollars, buy those things at your local ski shop. Profitable dealers who see lots of tournament skiers in their showroom spending money are far more likely to support the tournament scene.

While I'm on the subject of people looking out for their own short term interests a tad too much, I'll relate the following story that has taken place multiple times in my 16yrs on the promo team.

Me: My boat has 150hrs, is in great shape and is priced at $XX,XXX
Buyer: Even though your boat looks new, that is a lot of hours. I am looking at a non promo boat that has 75hrs for the same price. I think I will get that one instead, (because those 75hrs will make a big difference 10yrs from now).
Me (thinking): How many of those hours were due to your kids skiing behind it when I donated it to JR Development for 2 days or at last weekends tournament when it got 15hrs on it because it was the only promo boat there? This is the same guy who will complain because the variety of boats at the local tournament may not match his draw at regionals.

When it is possible to do so, skiers who can afford the extra $ (we are not talking about the M1/W1 "crowd"), should support the promo skiers, dealers and companies that support the sport.

skiboat38 · August 2016

@brettmainer Speak it Brother!!! I'm sure you have learned the art of ending the conversation as soon as they tell you about the other boat.....I talk over them with that's the boat you should buy as I'm already walking away.

Marco · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

@brettmainer You hit it on the head. Support your local dealer and they might choose to support you as well. At our tournament, we set up banners and feather flags with Malibu, Tommy's and HO logos, and set up a booth to sell HO gear from Tommy's. We even raffled off a HO V Type R. Our tournament had a Regional's like feel. An additional benefit is there was lots of Tommy's chatter on facebook, adding to the exposure Tommy's and Malibu are getting.

gsm_peter · August 2016

Sorry for stupied question from a non competing guy.

In reality, is there a need to have such new boats?
Could the 50 to 200 top skiers perform equally on a 10 year old greay boat?

Does the rest of the world have similar requirements on new boats for records?

unksskis · August 2016

Other (explain)

Speed control and engines innovate so rapidly, it's like computers, but a lot more expensive.

RazorRoss3 · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

@gsm_peter, 10 years old I'd say no, 5 years old, I'd say yes for the majority of tournament skiers. I wouldn't complain about a 2011 anything.

jdarwin · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

@gsm_peter - 2008 to today, the boats are similar. Zero off speed control and 330-350hp engines. Most wouldn't know the difference. I train behind a 2007 196 w/ ZO and don't notice much difference when I get to tournaments. As for the rest of the world, the current rule doesn't exist. I could use my 2007 to pull a record event without exception anywhere else in the world.

bgturf · August 2016

A lot of the cost increases come from the demands of the skiers. Then the technology has increased greatly. The skiers that are trying to up grade are wanting new graphics in the boat. It costs a manufacturer 200 K plus to do that and spread that cost over 75 to 100 boats per year with a 5 year life span it is hard to justify to Corperate bean counters for a return on investment. The other thing is they are building them to last longer so skiers don't feel the need to go buy a new boat because the old one is working just fine.
Yes it is frustrating sometimes being a promo person. But with a lot of years doing it you have to understand the industry.

Horton · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

I am sure this idea has been floated before but let me say it again. I say we scrap the current model and change skiers $10 extra for every tournament round and give that to the boat owner.

If a boat pulls 5 or 6 tournament on a year it would get about 75-100 hours in a year and make $6,000. Over 3 years (rounding up) that is 300 hours and $20K. If the boat companies will sell these boats to the Promo guys at wholesale I think they can keep the boats for years and come out ahead.

Jody_Seal · August 2016

Other (explain)

@gsm_peter

Answer to your question about the rest of the world and tow boat utilization. The answer is yes for the most part many other countries utilize AWSA/USAWS towboat standards and tournament Criteria. There are though federations that just do not have the latest boat's and utilize what they have. In the last 5 years or so though I have not heard of any Perfect Pass tournament's so most every thing is ZO with either the current boat rules or older and converted boats.

The towboat situation is not as bad as some would read into this. There are area's where promo's of any kind are real thin or are none. AWSA has taken a stance that tournament's will not be declined due to not having current towboat's.
The Reminder is we do have a rule book and the bottom line is if a boat can provide consistent service under the tournament rules then so be it use it, provided that the current model is unavailable and a exception is granted. So Joe If ya gotta use the 07 then bring it on!!

This situation is not going away and the AWSA and tow boat manufacturer's are addressing it. Some new tournament guidelines are being presented and hopefully will help both Promo's and LOC's and skier's as whole.

MillerTime38 · August 2016

Other (explain)

For Class C tournaments I think you should be able to use any tournament boat that has cruise control and adjust the tolerance closer to actual. For records they should allow any boat that has the current speed control to pull the event. This may help attract more skiers to class C events that currently ski behind perfect pass and will put less burden on the host to bring in "approved" boats to pull tournaments.

escmanaze · August 2016

It seems a little odd that the dealer program and the "demo" / promo program are separate. I have to admit, I would be mad if I was a dealer as well. It seems like the answer is to do more like I see with bikes, snowmobiles, etc. and that is to tell the dealer that he is the promo guy too. If he does a good job at it, great, he will sell some boats. If he doesn't do it well or at all, well then, he will probably sell fewer ski boats. That simple. If all the dealers in your area suck, you either discontinue your tournament, get an exception, or provide your own boat. I have to imagine if the folks at AWSA start to see a bunch of tournaments getting canceled for lack of a towboat, that might suddenly talk louder than the big 3 knocking at their door asking them not to add a 3rd year in.

gsm_peter · August 2016

@Jody_Seal

Thanks for the clarification.

I do not vote since I am not entitle to have an opinion in this subject.
(Anyhow, I am grateful that we do not have the promo rule in Sweden)

My 2 cents as a 15 off, 30/32 mph skier FWIW.

I prefer the wake from the 200 for slalom and the trick wake from the 196.
Have never tried PP. I can not feel any difference in the ZO settings.
Some coaches set me on B2 and others on C1.

bigtex2011 · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

@MillerTime38 oh dear. I cant imagine going back to pp after 8 years of zo. I'm too fat and would pull the boat backwards

dave2ball · August 2016

If you due away with the 2 or 3 year rule and allow that any boat can pull a tournament you may just abolish all promo teams. There would be nobody willing to invest in a promo boat and the factories would have no intensive to stay in 3 event skiing. Nobody with half a brain is going to hold on to a promo boat for 3 years and then take a huge loss. another question is Who is going to be willing to use there private or club boat that is 3 plus year old boat and put 8-15 hrs on it in a given weekend?
How would the regional's or nationals be held if promo boats are scarce or non existent? As it is nobody wants to hold the nationals as it is. But that is a difference thread. It may throw the ski world into chaos.
USA waterski and the skiing world should not have to pay the price because the MFG's wont back the local events with there promo boats or assist in the sales of there boats. If they are worried about sales and so forth maybe they should force the dealer to take the boat back. The MFG's have no problem taking back there team skier boats. Adding the promos into the mix would only add 1 -2 boats per dealer. All sales leads would be referred to the local dealer and they can sell the boat for what the dealer feels it is worth. The promo teams were meant to work with dealers to bring to bring sales and exposure to our sport.
A couple of people have mentioned about special colors and patterns is great but there is a stocking cost for the MFG's. the coat of changing the pattern in the mold and so forth, Some of that has already been done by MC which did set there promo boats apart from your everyday dealer boats.
I have been on a promo team for over 30 plus years and I have seen just about everything promo wise and there is always somebody who is not happy.

MillerTime38 · August 2016

Other (explain)

@bigtex2011 sounds like you are hitting the Cheetos a little much. I would imagine you would still run your normal [email protected]

bigtex2011 · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

@MillerTime38 haha. Im hideous. Look away

Jdubs · August 2016

I have a promo boat for sale. It's in it's 2nd year of tournaments so I am hoping to get it sold soon so I can stay in the program. If you want the program to stay healthy / or even survive, consider supporting our sport by purchasing
a promo boat.

Horton · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

@Jdubs that is a good looking boat. Is it on Ski-It-Again under promo boats?

Jdubs · August 2016

Sure is @Horton and thanks!
link

Mrs_MS · August 2016

Other (explain)

I agree with Chuck_Dickey ....
In the first post.
MS was promo for 10 years!
Stress
Stress
Stress
Trying to sell...
We were not in it to make money....but certainly not to lose!
PITA
We don't even have a tournament this year at our lake!
Not enough boats!
Sad....

jdarwin · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

Tournaments in SCR in 2007 - 89. 2016 - 65. That's $5400 less in sanction fee income. Plus $1500 less in head tax revenue for the region. Total impact of almost $7000 and that's just one region! Curious how many no longer host tournaments due to lack of boats to pull them.

Mrs_MS · August 2016

Other (explain)

If the boat company's helped out with selling or taking it back, we would possibly STILL be doing promo!
It just got too stressful and risky...it's a rich mans club.
After 10 years we said "that's it".... Finished off the house!
Our lake has a club boat so.....

Kelvin · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

Well, I took @jdarwin 's advice and asked for a rules exception to use my 2010 SN 200 at our slalom only tournaments this weekend as a backup. To some extent, it backfired on me. We had a promo owner back out after he found out about the rules exemption. Don't get me wrong - I was happy to use my boat for a couple of rounds at our small tournaments, but it got me to thinking.

If we fast forward a few years and the rules are changed and the promos are gone - where are the boats going to come from and how are we going to compensate the owners for allowing their boats to be used. For lakes with a club boat, it is a fairly easy decision, but for lakes with personal boats, its not as easy. I know I am willing to have mine used at tournaments (under the right circumstances). At other sites, will their be owners willing to use their non-promo boats in tournaments.

disland · August 2016

Boat manufacturers should work with AWSA to address the issue for 2017 or agree to delete the 2 year rule

@Jdubs nice boat! Wish I had the cash, hmm where did it all go, oh ya NYU, Columbia, Albany Med, Oh ya lol

dave2ball · August 2016

Kalvin I said pretty much the same thing in an earlier post. I agree 110%. If tournament directors or clubs get rule exceptions you will not have a promo teams. One of two thing have to happen,
Skiers need to start supporting the sales of promo boats or the MFG's have to revamp the programs and assist the teams. Times have changed. There is no waiting list for ANY PROMO TEAMS anymore. When there is damage to the boat and the tournament won't pay or they get trashed and scratched and nobody takes responsibility that affects the resale of that boat and guess what when you need a promo boat and your site is known or has a reputation for not caring for promo boats you won't get a boat because the owner can't take a chance of any damage not being covered.
All the above affects the sale of promo boats.

jdarwin · August 2016

AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)

@dave2ball - it's the "chicken or the egg" scenario. I don't WANT to get exceptions. I have no choice. There are NO PROMO BOATS available. Simple. I made numerous phone calls to no avail. If I want to host an event and no promo boats are available, I must request an exception. Simple. Also, the fall is particularly hard to get boats because the few promo members that remain try to sell their boats after Nationals. Therefore, the inventory is even fewer. So, it's not a matter of WANTING to receive an exception, it's a matter of NEEDING to request an exception. Big difference. If the requesting/granting of exceptions has a negative affect on the promo programs, that's a natural result of the lack of success on the part of manufacturers to provide their product to the marketplace.

dave2ball · August 2016

@jdarwin I do agree that the fall is difficult to get boats. My post was for exceptions in a general term when boat are available. Early to mid season. If the promo person won't bring his boat then that should be brought up to the team coordinator.
You are right it's the chicken and the egg. I've been boing this for over 30 years and I'll just say some things never change.

ski6jones · August 2016

Agreed @OB1, but that's not the message the boat manufacturers want to hear.

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