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Bias in trick judging?

MattLMattL Posts: 39 Baller
Please watch the following video before reading the text below.





So this is the 2nd time in a row that I have gotten cut on my Toe Side. I for sure get the ski at least 85 degrees around, but probably at 90 every time, however I have asked judges why it was cut and I have concluded that because my body doesn't rotate sideways, (only my knee and down does) I get cut on them. So is tricking not about what the ski does anymore? Picture this... You put your feet in a 90 degree angle. Your non-dominate (handle) foot is pointing forward, and your other foot is turned 90 degrees to the side or your dominate foot. Now lift your forward facing foot on to the seat of a chair. This is how I am when I do a TS. My whole body isn't turned sideways, however as long as your foot is 90 degrees, the ski will have the same angle. I have learned this technique because I have flexible hips and it is not necessary for me to rotate my whole body to get my ski around the full 90 degrees. There were separate judges, however this has been a recurring problem for me. There appears to be a bias that favors more experienced skiers and it gives them the benefit of the doubt. There appears to be a bias favoring more advanced skiers. When questionable or obscured from view, it is assumed their trick was sufficient scoreable while a less experienced skier doing the exact same motion is assumed to be insufficient to score.

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,852 Administrator
    I would score you zero for lack of rotation. Watching it is super slow mo it actually looks better but you do not get 90.

    As for the other skier he gets the ski around a lot farther.

    Tricks are hard. Every trickers gets cut. Get coaching. Keep tricking.

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    jimskiz_skier
  • ntxntx Posts: 825 Crazy Baller
    I am not sure I would score either one for credit. Maybe I have some Russian in my ancestry. The second one is closer but even that one is sketchy.
    Horton
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,770 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I'm with ntx on that.
    Horton
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,270 Mega Baller
    I don’t trick and know nothing about tricks. How can SR appointed judges at an event judge a run to be record setting (after watching the replays) and then have it not approved by another set of judges later on.
    Yes, there is bias.
    Shut up and ski
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,764 Mega Baller
    @MattL
    Your competitor got credit due to wake obstruction and tie goes to the runner ideology.
    You on the other hand are not 90 degrees and are clearly no credit. however if the judge told you you are not getting credit due to not rotating your body then that judge or judges need to go have a clinic. Here in the southern region and especially Florida trick judging is very tight and over the top Anal.
    Dont be disgruntled go make the trick credit it only needs another 10 degrees.
    I remember a skier many years ago that continued not getting credit for his toe slide and in one round he held it all the way down the course hollering at the camera and boat pointing out the trick!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    Dragojimski
  • ntxntx Posts: 825 Crazy Baller
    @MS if done correctly, the event judges are only supposed to see one replay in real time. In some of the higher trick runs that can be very difficult and can be over turned. I am not sure what the protocol is for the record approval process. @klindy ???
    Jody_Seal
  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,089 Mega Baller
    edited July 2018
    I would have given it to you. @Bruce_Butterfield how can you say it's "pretty clear" he didn't get 90? It's pretty unclear to me - you can't see the ski because of the spray. @MattL I think you need to adjust your rope length to get to a flat spot. You're partially standing on the "wiggle" in the middle that is causing your ski not to be level. Look at the difference with the second skier... he's at a flatter spot of the table. @horton isn't a rated trick judge. Throw his vote out :)

    I think the bias against giving you credit is because you often see skiers who just give a quick little hip twitch and don't get anywhere close to even 45 degrees. You give that impression because it is quick and your shoulders aren't rotating.

    Shorten your rope, hold it a moment longer, and I think your odds of receiving credit will improve.
    Is it time to ski, yet?
    jimskiMattL
  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,089 Mega Baller
    To eliminate the bias we need more technology (groan)... every tricker needs to ski in a lake colored, full body suit to get screened out of the video leaving only the ski. @Splasheye eyeTrick Invisible Man mode. What do you say, Donal? :)
    Is it time to ski, yet?
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,532 Mega Baller
    @dchristman the tail of the ski is clearly visible and it’s not 90 deg. That’s clear at least to me.

    @ms you are proving your own point again - you know nothing about tricks.

    Again, it’s called “judging” for a reason and that’s why there are multiple judges for trick and slalom let alone high diving and gymnastics. The “correct score” is not always obvious. The best advice to any athlete is to make the trick as clean as they can so there is no doubt in the judges mind. Some of the worlds best trickers are actually very easy to judge because their runs are so clean.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    HortonJody_Sealjayskiklindy
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,764 Mega Baller
    edited July 2018
    From Sr. Trick Judge Stephen Seal. No credit on both skiers due to not 90!
    Stephen has now judged many national, international records as well as a world record. and is one of the southern regions best trick judges and A Pickos pad-wan!
    Move on!!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    Bruce_ButterfieldHorton
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,887 Infinite Pandas
    Toe sideslide is a random trick for scoring. Yours was fine (I'm a senior trick judge who has judged world record runs). But @Horton and the internet panel would cut yours (and the other guy's) on any given day. I don't do TS because the judging is too variable.

    To score yours more consistently, you need to bend your toe knee more and stand a bit taller. Gain on the boat, weight the front of your foot to level the ski more and display the bent toe knee control. The foot should be turned parallel to the water. This involves the entire lower body which smoothly and controllably drives the trick. And shows that control to the judges.

    Your rope length is fine if you like it for your other toes. Work on your other toes so you can abandon TS.

    Boat video is supposed to be near the top of the windshield. Too low and judges can't see the ski. Too high and they can't see wake clearance.

    You will certainly get unfairly cut in tricking. Keep tricking.

    Eric
    Jody_Sealdchristmanz_skierThan_Bogan
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,270 Mega Baller
    East German judges can be bought
    Shut up and ski
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,303 Mega Baller
    @MattL They are both close and you've made a decent argument that you can get the ski turned even though your hips and/or shoulders don't appear to be. However, as has been pointed out several times above it's difficult for the judges to see and therefore I'd expect the consistency of "good" vs "no credit" is pretty bad doing it the way you are. You can see your toe strap when the ski is (mostly) sideways and that helps but still pretty marginal. Likewise, your rope leg is rail stiff which, again, creates an appearance that you're not actually turning the ski but merely poking at it.

    As far as the video, judges get to see ONE review in real time. No slow motion or stop action. Ironically, I would have been more likely to give you credit in real time (in this video which has no lead in to the TS) than I did with the slow-mo.

    In terms of rope, I would try shortening your rope a bit. You are right on that second rooster tail which also obscures the ski. A foot or so shorter would help.

    I'd bet you get credit about half the time doing it that way and the other skier would likely get credit 80-90% of the time,
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    dchristman
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,852 Administrator
    Darn I didn't leave @eleeski banned long enough

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  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,270 Mega Baller
    When they review a record, how many looks do they get?
    Shut up and ski
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,588 Mega Baller
    @MS Months
    (I don't know,I'm just super sarcastic and I somehow opened this thread by mistake)
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    The_MS
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,764 Mega Baller
    edited July 2018
    I see many trick runs through out the year as driver / boat judge and will have to agree with Eric that judging trick is a variable ideology from state to state , region to region and even across the ponds on a world level. And rightly so! it takes all kinds to fairly judge tricks however the harsh unreasonable judge is just as bad as a liberal give em all credit judge. don't give up on the toe slide, toe slide and reverse is worth a quick 260 points.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    dchristmaneleeski
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,887 Infinite Pandas
    @MS "East German judges can be bought" With IPA?

    Two views at full speed is all we are allowed before turning in our pink sheets. Further views to resolve issues on the pink sheets are allowed - so check your pink sheets and ask the judges for another look if they got something wrong (which happens). Two views on the records as well (for the judging).

    I was on a record review panel as an out of area judge on another record. Two views was all I was allowed for the review.

    We are allowed to watch videos and practice as much as we want (need). Practice judging to get it right the first time and check your transfer to the pink sheets for the second.

    The rule book might not be as harsh as some (FL) judges!

    Eric

    Jody_SealThe_MS
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 820 Crazy Baller
    edited July 2018
    My 2¢: I think both @eleeski and @klindy's comments point at the possibility there is a kind of 'competency bias' that may be working against you in the scoring. We've seen great trickers and we recognize the body mechanics of a clean and properly done trick. The second skier stands tall, confident, and advances himself on the boat with his rope leg, just as you'd teach the trick. Surely a good judge is watching for 90º on the ski, but everything about the skier's movements suggests he's going to do the trick properly, so I'm inclined to "see it".

    My guess is that if you start keeping your shoulders higher, and more importantly, pull your rope leg in with a more pronounced movement, you'll get credit more often even if you don't turn your ski any more than you do now, and it may prove a kind of bias. But if you advance yourself more on the boat with your rope leg, it's also probable that you'll find it an easier trick to complete.
    jcampeleeskiklindy
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,303 Mega Baller
    @andjules I'd agree with your comments. The reverse TS is one where we typically see a "stab" at it instead of a more pronounced turn. Interestingly trickers who do a TB/TF without turning their upper body backward and back front will typically get credit for the tricks even though most of the rotation is done from the hips down. Again, as @andjules says, the body mechanics are recognizable.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,532 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan try your local bartender instead. They are much cheaper and more effective. Uhhhh unless that’s where you were when reading this trick thread.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    Than_BoganBroussard
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,887 Infinite Pandas
    So I was trying to post the proper psychiatric treatment for @Than_Bogan - a trick ski. The post was blocked. Hopefully it was a long link issue (I copied the link from the phone and it was very long).

    But it made me think about the core issue here. Is there a bias favoring experienced skiers?

    I've been good for a while. I still think the judges screw me. I still avoid tricks the judges like to cut (TS). But I shudder to think if I have gotten preferential treatment. Trickers need to score tricks (if we are going to have any trickers left) and judges need to consistently score the tricks. Serious mistakes obviously need to be addressed. But cutting a TS for 5 degrees short is wrong (given the variations in views and styles). Bias and prejudice do not belong in tricking.

    This post was an experiment to see if @Horton had banned me. Probably out of worry that I'd speak my honest mind - trick judges are too strict.

    Eric
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