The Promo Boat Paradigm has to change

Not_The_Pug · November 2020

I think people are forgetting the promo person is on site all day long. We are usually one of the first to arrive and last to leave. I'm lucky that the events I go to, I'm usually a chief official too (so there all day anyways). No dealer is going to send someone to sit at a tournament all day and pay them (unless that dealer is a skier). As others have said as a promo boat owner, it is not just the cost of hours. I'm pretty lucky that most tournaments I pull are less than an hour from my home. I think the $25 is a nice start, but is not close to the actual cost of time, depreciation, insurance (you can't have a bare bones policy) and maintenance.
Also the hours limits on boats have come in the last few year. As boats are returned to the dealer, they limit both tournament and personal hours. And it is not just one brand, I have seen this from both Nautique and MC.

ALPJr · November 2020

This thread makes me miss Hammers and SkiWorlds boats at Berkeley.

6_Buoys · November 2020

@dave2ball once again I agree with you, the skier will pay in the end. I think we all agree that the "promo" days are over or close to over and the skiers that want the newest boats at the tournaments they attend will have to pay up. The other issues you and some others have stated are the current or historical problems (selling the boat before season is over, boat hours, etc). That is why I am proposing a wholesale change to the program. Dealers that want to be involved, a centralized fee, equal distribution and access of the boats, manufacturer involvement. No more promo "owners" that need to move a boat. Boats that are put on the market by the manufacturer to be fully utilized at tournaments (hrs be damned). You wouldn't need so many boats at the big tournaments if you didn't have to juggle them around to spread the hours out, just run a boat all day. @Horton you are correct, if we simply try to tweak the current system my plan is overly burdensome compared to just paying the promo owner. I was throwing out there a more in depth change to the current "promo" system. As you and others much more knowledgeable than I have said, change is coming. Is it going to happen to us or with us?

Horton · November 2020

@6_Buoys A few obstacles

First of all VERY few dealers want to be involved.

When the dealer owns the boat they ( at some point ) have to pay flooring ( bank interest ) $400 - $600 per month +/-. Like car dealerships boat dealers finance inventory. It adds up fast.

My $50 per engine hour depreciation number assumes that somebody is looking after these boats like it is their child. If these boats are to get a lot of hours who is going to prevent every little scratch? Go back 20 years when promo boats were dime a dozen the boats were sometimes taken for granted and honestly a lot of them were abused. Somebody has to pay for every dollar depreciation one way or another.

bishop8950 · November 2020

Not sure I have anything new to say. Overall, it’s just sad to see the sport I love seemingly slipping away. Or hopefully I have it wrong and we are just evolving.

With boat prices going up and apparently less people willing to buy them it would be reasonable the boat companies choose to subsidize the tournament/promo side less. Let’s hope they continue to do what they can.

We have been increasingly leaning on promo owners to subsidize which isn’t right.

Do we have a choice other than having skiers pay to play? I am 100% fine with paying a higher entry fee to cover the hours I put on the boat.

I like the idea of looser requirements for Class C and perhaps a smaller boat cost contribution to the tournament. I am also happy to pay more for a record using newer boats.

Access to promos in the events I host has been legitimately impacted over the last few years. In those events, I used to get 6 boats over 3 tournaments. This year we got 1 boat (and he was a LOC memeber), and it had nothing to do with Covid. We used personal boats for the rest of the tournaments and compensated the boat owners a bit, but not enough. They agreed to sponsor the rest as it was “our club and friends”. It is not a sustainable model though.

I expect to pay to play in NorCal 2021. Do the experiment and collect feedback.

dave2ball · November 2020

@bishop8950 this is your quote. like the idea of looser requirements for Class C and perhaps a smaller boat cost contribution to the tournament. I am also happy to pay more for a record using newer boats.
Why should you pay less to the boat owner for a C? The cost per hour does not changed or C ‘s. If an older boat is used then you have the option not to ski. Price per hour should be the same regardless of a C ELR or boat used.

bishop8950 · November 2020

@dave2ball the depreciation is totally different for a 2021 anything than a 2009 anything. Only fuel is equivalent.

dave2ball · November 2020

@bishop8950 i do agree the depreciation is different for a 21 VS an 09 but once you pay a certain amount for a boat a president may have already be set in may owners eyes who agree to use there boats.

Horton · November 2020

@bishop8950 I think if we pay all boat owners the same amount that guy that owns the old boat can put money in the bank towards that new engine he's going to need eventually or whatever.

jayski · November 2020

The theory to pay equally regardless of boat year is fine but it will eventually mean you're going to NEVER see a new boat at a tournament. (Personally I think it panda worthy)

Why would I take my brand new 2021 $135,000 Ski Nautique to a tournament when Johnny's 2017 MC gets the same pay rate? Eventually these folks (with the new boats) will not bother bringing their new tug, welcome to tow boat socialism lol

RichardDoane · November 2020

Some people like @Not_The_Pug like to be the promo boat owner. I know that I did with MC back in those years. Having people ski well behind your boat and appreciate it’s presence at the event is a powerful thing. Only looking at the $$$$ is a short sided view.

dave2ball · November 2020

Outside of Nautique whose team members do not own the boat so they should not take such a hit for recouping cost we are only talking about MC and Malibu. If the LOC compensates Nautique members that is just a bonus for them. Promo members are required to bring there boats to a certain amount to tournaments per there contract. The additional money will help the promo member ease the burden.
When we talk about a private boat owner bring his boat to an event there is no reason they should not be given the same amount of money per hour use.
As to @jayski post I really don’t know too many people who will give there 21 SN or MC to pull an event with out being on a promo team. I’m not saying it won’t happen but very small percentage.

Horton · November 2020

@dave2ball I was under the understanding that with the current nantique program the promo guys were actually paying a lease payment on the boat. maybe that's a regional thing and I don't know maybe that was just a thing a couple years ago

ski6jones · November 2020

Does anybody know what further changes the big 3 are planning WRT their promo programs, like over the next 5 yrs? I think helping the promo or private boat owners is a good idea. However this might be just the excuse the mfgs need to further pull back their programs. It might be good to know their plans so what we do is complementary if pissible.

skierjp · November 2020

@Horton Nautique Team Members have the same program across the country.

dave2ball · November 2020

@Horton yes they are paying a lease. But they have much less invested. The biggest thing is nautique boats go back to a dealer to sell. A Nautique promo person will not take a huge hit at the end of the year as far as recouping cost. Anything to help with the additional gas insurance so forth is alway appreciated. They should not be excluded. My bad for not clarifying in my earlier post.

BlueSki · November 2020

I bought a promo boat. For those at Malibu, Mastercraft, and Nautique that read this thread, when I buy my next boat - whether promo, ski school boat, or new - my choice will be based on my experience skiing behind your boats at tournaments and ski schools. Your support of the sport matters and will translate into sales because it give skiers experience with your boat, even if the sale is hard to tie directly to the promo program. I won’t buy a boat model I haven’t skied behind. Thanks for supporting the sport.

dave2ball · November 2020

@BlueSki that is great to hear. Would not be a bad idea to shoot the MFGs an email stating that

BlueSki · November 2020

@dave2ball, you are absolutely right. I will. We almost didn’t have a Nautique at our state tournament, but one of the women skiers made a call and Nautique got a boat there. There were some insurance hassles, but it got done. They need to hear from us.

Golfguy · November 2020

The take away from this conversation, in summary, is that the boat owner should be paid a per hour compensatory rate ($50/hr) for use in a tournament. I'm going to run with that Idea in my 2021 tournaments. Notice I am going to stop using the word promo.

skierjp · November 2020

@BlueSki what state do live in?

Golfguy · November 2020

Arizona

BlueSki · November 2020

Ohio

unksskis · November 2020

As @bishop8950 put very well, it's great to have club or private boats used in our local tournaments, but that limits the open-ness of the tournament to anyone outside of the club/property owners. Our tournaments will only "fill up" faster, and overall numbers reduced to keep personal boat hours and liability down.

As a jumper, I think we're even higher maintenance when it comes to boats at tournaments. Engine size, ZeroOff Rev, dual puck vs single, etc all factor into desire, interest, and comfort level of attending a tournament. The lack of promos and shift to personal boats at tournaments will continue the hinderance of jump access and growth.

rico · November 2020

I agree with @RichardDoane The reality is that most people organising tournaments are doing it for the love of the sport and community. I helped at tournaments in Florida and California over the past 10 years. 99% of the LOC are not doing it for the money or for breaking even. I put up a tournament at our lake this year and there is no profit, a lot of work, some stress but a lot of fun with friends and other skiers.
Sorry to be blunt but the reality is promo boat owners also use their promo boat to ski all year long and It's not just a service to the tournament community. There are less and less promo people and a lot of people that would like to do promo and have no spots. The problem is not with not having people wanting to do promo but not enough boats available for promo teams.
I am happy to pay more as long as the system is the same for all tournaments (hourly rate for boat use and rate per miles for towing to a tournament), but it is a vicious circle of offer and demand. LOC need skiers, skier need boats and officials, skiers need LOC to put up tournaments...

dave2ball · November 2020

Rico say it best. It seems like the MFG’s feel they are not enough return on the invest put into 3 event skiing.

Horton · November 2020

@dave2ball let's be honest and play it straight. There is not very much return on investment providing boats to the competitive tournament world. It is even more evident at this moment because boats from all three brands are more or less sold out. If the factories can't make them fast enough why would they discount them?

dave2ball · November 2020

@Horton now a days i don’t disagree with you. They are doing the bare minimum to reach the 20% required by AWSA for required for national qualification

Jody_Seal · November 2020

USA Water Ski Approved Tournament Towboats Year(s) Approved Boat CompanyModelYear(s) Approved Boat Company Model85-89 American Skier Advance90-93 American Skier Legend94-97 American Skier TBX00-04 American Skier TBX Pro84, 90American Skier Volante83-85 American Skier87 Baha Ski Sport94-95 Bimini Boats Bimini Skier/Skier 93-94 Brendella Barefooter97 Brendella Calabria93-95 Brendella Pro Comp90-94 Brendella Shortline Comp88-89 Brendella Ski Brendella93 Brendella Sport Comp 90-91 Brendella Super Comp88 Centurion Outboard11-18 Centurion Carbon Pro 86 93-94 Cheyenne Boats 20' Elite89-91 Cheyenne BoatsCheyenne98-99 Cobalt 20303-08 Correct Craft 19603-08 Correct Craft 20605-08 Correct Craft SV 211 03-04 Correct Craft 21688-92 Correct Craft Barefoot Nautique78-02 , 19-20 Correct Craft Ski Nautique93-94 Correct Craft Ski Nautique 1:192,94-95 ,98-00 Correct Craft Ski Naut. Open Bow88 Correct Craft Ski Naut. Direct Drive84 Correct Craft Ski Tique93-95,00 Correct Craft Sport Nautique09 Correct Craft196 w/ or w/o Hydro-Gate09 Correct Craft206 w/ or w/o Hydro-Gate10-20 Correct CraftSki Nautique 20087 Eliminator Comp Skier86-89 Fineline/Ski Centurion Barefoot Warrior 92-93 Fineline/Ski Centurion Bimini Skier99-01 Fineline/Ski Centurion Eclipse88-89,98Fineline/Ski Centurion Falcon90 Fineline/Ski Centurion Falcon Barefoot96-97,02-03 Fineline/Ski Centurion LaPoint02-03 Fineline/Ski Centurion LaPoint Open Bow94-95 Fineline/Ski Centurion LaPoint Tru Trac84 Fineline/Ski Centurion Ski Centurion04-05 Fineline/Ski Centurion T5 Comp 90-93 Fineline/Ski Centurion Tru Trac III85-86 Fineline/Ski Centurion Tru Trac87-88 Fineline/Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 94-95 Fineline/Ski Centurion Warrior Barefoot 89 Flightcraft 18XL Outboard87-89 Flightcraft Flightcraft88 Flightcraft Inboard 89 FlightcraftXLSS02-06 Gekko GTR 2285 Glastron Ski Machine O/B 150hp85-86 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp,235hp 92-93 Hydrodyne 20' Inboard Comp87-90 Hydrodyne 20' O/B94-96 Hydrodyne Comp XP94 Hydrodyne Grand Sport85 HydrodyneI/O 84 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp Johnson84 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp Mercury 87 Hydrostream Vegas Skier00-03 Infinity ZX-1 01-02 Infinity ZX-1 Open Bow93-97 Malibu Echelon93 Malibu Echelon LX Open Bow90-92 Malibu Flightcraft 18XLT90-99 Malibu Flightcraft 0XLOBT/Barefoot 89-93 Malibu Malibu Skier Euro Sport95-96,98 Malibu Response02-04 Malibu Response Barefooter96-04 Malibu Response LX 1:101 Malibu Response LX 36500 Malibu Response LX 1.5:103-09 Malibu Response LXi06 Malibu Response LXi 38309- 11 MalibuResponse FXi11-20 MalibuResponse TXi85-90 Malibu Skier98,02 Malibu Sportster03 Malibu Sportster LX92,95,99 Malibu Sunsetter96 Malibu Tantrum86-91 Marlin Magnum Skier91-99 MasterCraft Barefoot 20083-84 MasterCraft Direct Drive84-85 MasterCraft O/B 150hp,200hp 83-86 MasterCraft Power Slot87-13 MasterCraft ProStar 19014-20 MasterCraftProStar00-01 MasterCraft ProStar 19502-13 MasterCraft ProStar 19787-91 MasterCraft ProStar 20092-98,00 MasterCraft ProStar 20501,03-05 MasterCraft ProStar 20909 MasterCraftProStar 21401 MasterCraft 19 Skier98-00 MasterCraft Sportstar99 MasterCraft Sportstar O. Bow94,97-03 MB Sports 19004 MB Sports 190 Plus95 MB Sports Boss 200 96 MB Sports LS20093,97-99 Moomba Boomerang98-01 Moomba Kanga99 Moomba Mobius98-01,03-09 Moomba Outback99-01 Moomba Outback LS92-93 Moore Marine Ski Pro 2000 FT.94-97 Moore Marine Ski Pro Footer I/O85-87 Moore Marine Ski Pro I/O02-04 Moore Marine Ski Pro Extreme 98-06 Sanger DXII Barefooter88-97 Sanger Barefoot O/B92-94 Sanger Ski Sanger DXII87-91 Sanger Skier91-92 Sea Ray 190SK93-96 Sea Ray Spitfire96 Sea Ray Spitfire EFI 93-94 Sea Ray Sportster93-94 Sea Ray Sportster BR85,87 Ski Eliminator91-92,94-95 Ski West California Skier92 Ski-Riffic Ski-Riffic90 Sleek Craft Boat Ski SK.

Hey ! AWSA certified em, Why not use em?

skierjp · November 2020

LOL, not even for a free entry!

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