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38 vs 35 Gates (the whole pas for that matter)

DutchDutch Posts: 20 Baller
edited June 2012 in Technique & Theory
Does anyone have a comment on the gate at 38 and how it might be different then the 35 gate. My 38 gate seems to be puttting me into one to shallow and then I'm not making a good turn at 1. None of this is occurig at 35. I feel like when I get a good start at 38 I can run this pass, but the good starts are few and far between.


  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    You are in the same boat with a lot of us. Try not to overload the line. Softer gate seems to oddly result in putting you wider and earlier (if you keep your handle well). I believe this is due to the fact that just like at other line lengths, too aggressive at the gate means the boat pulls you up and at the ball. You can stay away from it better and set up a better one with a softer gate and good handle control (at least that's what my good one balls feel like at 38).
    Jim Ross
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,407 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    My experiment is leave for the gate earlier with less angle than at 35. Can't afford to be really high on the boat at turn at 1 or will turn right at the boat creating loose line as travel immediately inbound. Given no line support generally for me this creates an unsustainable over-turn. Lighter turn in, juice to the wake, early edge but maintain outbound w/handle, patience, repeat. If only it was so easy. Purple is tough.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • DustyDusty Posts: 315 Baller
    I'm not sure aout less angle than -35- from judging/watching a lot of 38 off passes, including Marcus, Jamie and others- they look to have some significant angle at 38 (and shorter)- they do not appear to load as early as at -35 and longer. Some good skiers have mentioned the turns get better, and the 'work area' gets narrower as the line gets shorter- that's what it looks like from the boat anyway.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,262 Mega Baller
    It's not sooner and less, it's the same or later and more resistance.

    To hold the same edge (unless you want to drop your shoulder in the water) at 38, think of adding more weight to a bench press. The boat will stand you up off edge unless you exert a little more resistance. Concentrate on rolling the ski on edge and holding it there and go from accelerating edge to turn edge without letting your arms out right after the second wake. Then ski away from the handle so just the ski gets outside the buoy line. If you hold your edge going into the first wake, you should have enough pop to get out there. By the time you react, if you are aiming for the first wake, you will likely to be already through them. it's a blink of your eye.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,407 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    If I give it too much, then I'm getting unloaded forcefully up course. I also have to keep in mind I'm a historic over-puller and if I pull that hard at 38 I'm just screaming...prob why I feel the need to back off.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,262 Mega Baller
    Hold the same edge, but it just takes more energy to hold it,,so I think the feeling is that you have to pull harder and then you go out and honk on it.

    My theory is that more passes are missed from pulling too hard too long than vice versa.

    The focus is edge and handle position.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,733 Mega Baller
    @scotchipman yes. To me it's just a fact of the geometry. The amount of time the rope is at a low angle relative to the boat keeps going down. And that's the only time pulling is productive.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,262 Mega Baller
    and everytime the rope shortens, the angle that you form with the pylon increases, so it will feel like it is a mini-tower and wants to stand you up. some math wiz can do the sine, cosine, or tan calculation, I have never seen it, but assume it is a couple degrees larger from 35 to 38.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,407 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @OB, I'm with ya there, and @than as well. At shorter lines there is a shorter effective pulling segment. With that I'm trying to start from higher up on gate pull out, roll in softer but sooner, shorter effort segment, earlier edge change but (and this is the tough part) maintain handle control and outbound. Time will tell...I could be full o baloney.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,262 Mega Baller
    If you watch this video of April Coble Eller, her gates look the same on 32, 35, and 38. I don't see where she goes sooner or later. She makes it look pretty easy, so what's the fuss?
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,262 Mega Baller
    OB, when I was skiing into 38 on a regular basis behind PP, I did start sooner with less initial "pull", so did the other guys I skied with, including a guy who runs 38 all the time. That was the thinking back a few years ago. I believe that this kind of start is not the best for ZO. The 38 off skier is now going later and harder and working more before the first wake. I don't know, as I am not there yet. Just noting what I am seeing and what we are talking about.

    My normal training partner, where Ken skied, tried a later and harder start today and he said had one of the best starts at 38 he has ever had. Unfortunately, it was late in the second round and he was not ready for the path he set coming out of 1 ball. He was excited by the setup and wants to try it again next time. He has gotten to 4 ball last year, so he has some experience at it.

  • DustyDusty Posts: 315 Baller
    I think LFF v. RFF makes a difference too. I see LFF having to be higher up on the boat and turn in later, more aggressively. Even the best skiers need some width to start from- at 38, getting width puts you pretty far up on the boat, 39 and 41 more so. Does 'going later' mean an easier or slower turn-in from width?
  • DutchDutch Posts: 20 Baller
    I have rerally enjoyed reading and thinking about all the different thoughts on this subject. I have to say that I am in agreement with @OB as far as a "wide, but slow, methodical, easy turn in for the gates with a later aggressivness...". I tried this yesterday and got 3.5 and felt like I was "in control". What @scothhipman said about the geometry I totaly see and agree with, so my thought is that the tecnique that most people, men and women, use to set up the 38-off pass is what is really important in order to run the pass consitently or even at all. It is hard to tell how April"s start is different from one pass to the next, but I can see that what she is doing works very well and her one ball is very clean and strong. I would say that her timing, which is what we're talking about, is nearly perfect.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,262 Mega Baller
    There are many ways to run shortline.

    Contrast Karina vs Whitney vs April. All 3 are different, all are successful.

    Water skiing is still an art with basic fundamental properties.

    What I do at 250 lbs vs someone at 180 lbs is probably quite different.
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,712 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    Skidqwg says my gate sucks so I need to stay out of this.
    Shut up and ski
  • thagerthager Posts: 4,984 Mega Baller
    I second that!
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • DustyDusty Posts: 315 Baller
    One of the better -38 skiers I have talked to has opined that he can't really load from width- there is 'no boat' to load against. He concentrates on getting the ski turned and pointed and body position set to load where it will be productive. I think he was saying what OB is saying, just a little differnenty, and as a LFF. As a heavier skier, at longer lines, I have to be careful not to be too slow at turn-in, and begin sinking a bit- that can stand you up even sooner than overloading...
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,262 Mega Baller
    edited June 2012
    I have read where Nate says he loads from the buoy line to the first wake, trying to change edges by the time he hits the second wake. I think he does this by carrying more speed in his setup. He uses ZO to propel him oit and then he is free from ZO in the turn.

    If you pull out to the same width, and use the left gate ball with number one as your turn in, your turn in is close to the same point everytime, and as the line shortens, the angle behind the boat seems like it would increase, this making it more intense.

    At least that's how I think about it. I might be wrong, and I hope I get back to 38 this year to find out!
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