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maintaining outbound direction after 2nd wake

h2oskierh2oskier Posts: 9 Baller
edited July 2012 in Technique & Theory
Even though I've been at this for a while, I still can't seem to figure out the proper mechanics/technique to keep my speed and outbound course after the 2nd wake. Instead, I tend to go flat and lose direction. I get away with it at -28 and -32, but it really makes me inconsistent at -35. I understand the problem, just don't know how to fix it. Appreciate any suggestions on how to correct this.


  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,612 Mega Baller
    Might need video for that. Could be a lot of causes -- maybe even something way before that point.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,429 Crazy Baller
    I've been working on that exact issue lately, and have been working with other skiers at our lake also, with great results. My thought process is to completely separate the edge change from the beginning of the reach. A lot of peoples hands come up during or soonafter the edge change, even if they keep 2 hands on the handle. In my mind, I think "edge change, wait wait wait, begin reach". It really helps keep me connected and going outbound when I can get it right.
  • igkyaigkya Posts: 705 Crazy Baller
    @Marco, I have this same issue. Any other tricks, tips, advice you can share to help one keep their arms in during the edge change?
  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,186 Crazy Baller
    @h20skier I had the same problem for the majority of last season, the best thing that I can tell you to help switch your edge faster is to hold on to your handle with both hands until you get to the buoy line and keep your elbows on your vest. This will make the edge change something that you dont have to do or think about but something that will automatically happen. Takes time as is one of the hardest things to learn to do consitantly.
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    This is what seperates the 28 skier from the 38 skier in my opinion. I believe I have mastered this technique and my sking at 38 has gotten more consistent. It starts at the white water on the turn before the edge change. When your second hand comes on the handle. The leading arm must be in a locked postition completly straight like a steel pole. Maintain that leading arm straight all the way to the apex of the next turn without allowing your upper body to rotate toward the boat as you move out off the second wake. As you leave the water water, if you have done this your inside arm will begin to bend, keep the inside arm on your vest, maintaing the outside arm striaght. Not only will this maintain outward direction it will also bring your body up over your front foot at the apex so the next pre turn, (It should really be the turn, as the turn begins at the white water in front of the buoy and ends at the white water after the buoy) When done in the manner described the turn will look like a half circle from overhead.
  • skihartskihart Posts: 520 Solid Baller
    Rich, I love your posts on technique. They are so detailed and specific that my brain seems to be able to translate what you say to the water. I think everybody responds differently to certain coaching/learning styles, and I seem to need VERY specific directions to affect change, your posts do that. In fact I use a lot of what you say with the guys that I ski with and they seem to respond well to it also. Keep up the good posts!
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,429 Crazy Baller
    @igkya- @Rich summed it up better than I ever could. I did get another tip (originated from Nate from what I was told), and that is when you first release from the handle, be sure the handle is still planted on your hip at the time you release the outside hand. That should keep you connected, and should help prevent your shoulders from being pulled to the inside, keeping you countered through the turn. Just got that tip yesterday, but haven't had a chance yet to try it.
  • 35 in the bag35 in the bag Posts: 76 Baller
    A different way to think about it in the course that really work for me.........and I see most of the top skiers doing it whether they think about it or not.

    Rotate the handle. Assuming normal grip configuration......rotate the handle towards a vertical position as you edge change into your on side.

    Rotate towards a horizontal position as you edge change into your toe side.

    This really solved a problem for me. See, when "I" think about it like how @Rich describes (which is great BTW) I end up staying on my pulling edge too long. The handle rotation thing just plain puts my upper body and arms in more of a correct position.

    Look at video of high end skiers...... you'll see it!

    The other problem you may be having is not enough speed as you exit off the second wake at 35 off.

    At 35 and beyond........ I am convinced that you cannot have "too much" speed. You can certainly have too little to work with. But "too much" can be dealt with as a possitive.

    At longer lengths "too much" speed can easily translate into slack.

    I think the high end skiers that make it look easy, generate speed better than the rest of us.

    Just my 2 cents.

    John M
    I used to think that ski tuning might be more complicated than Rocket Science.........
    Now I know it is..
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,051
    So this sort of gets back to the old leading arm versus trailing arm debate. @Rich, where are you saying the load should be when you come back on the handle. In the arm/hand that just came back on the handle (trailing arm) or the arm/hand that stayed on the handle(leading arm).
    Bob Grizzi
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    I believe that most of the load is in the lead arm. I feel the trailing arm is more for stabilization. If my lead arm is loaded, ankels & knees bent, pointing in the direction of travel works best for me. I have read where some pros disagree, however after considerable experimentation I believe that my discription is the most efficeint way to both get the ski on maximum edge, which creates more angle from white water to white water, it also alows to maintain outbound direction. This out bound direction is the big seperater between good skiers & great skiers.
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    @Rich - your description sounds great. Any photos or videos you could post of keeping the lead arm straight out to the apex? One question - wouldn't your lead arm stay straight until that hand comes off the handle which is a little before the apex?
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    at 35 in the bag speed is always good. What you discribe is losing cross course direction which feels fast, but actually means you are going in the direction of the boat which feels fast. (And is actually slower) Andy Mapple does it best. He can stay on his leaning edge longer than anyone, and still be strong enough to maintain outbound direction keeping his torso away from the boat. Nate Smith also does this with an earlier edge change. Andy is a different beast and I believe is very strong in his ability to stay on leaning edge and still keep outbound direction.
    Speed is always your friend and it means you are maintaning angle, which increases distance traveled, which will feel slow & controlled.
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    slack is always from a lack of outbound direction
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,051
    @Rich, would you say the difference in thoery is basically the difference betweent he old school and new school approach. I say that because Rossi explains it the exact opposite way. His article on "Connection" talks about the majority of the pressure connected through the trailing arm (arm/hand that comes back on the handle) and trusting it all the way through the wakes into the edge change and pre-turn. I am by no means dissagreeing or being contradictory; just looking for clarification because there seems to be two schools of thought on method.

    I may go experiment myself and see which way seems to work better for me.
    Bob Grizzi
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    to Ski dog, the trailing arm doesn't work for me, and doesn't appear to be what he does
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    to jim, yes when your arm comes off the handle it won't be straight, and that is a few feet before actual apex, the ski
    will go out further and hit the final apex.
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,188
    First, I agree that the straight front arm is a good thing at hookup. Also, that the trailing arm, elbow to the vest, lat. flexed, is the way I strive to do that. As far as which arm is loaded, is a "Perception" of which arm you may be focusing on.

    By accomplishing this you are twisting COM in the direction of travel, a good thing. When I first started doing this some years a go, I was convinced I was loading the trailing arm. That seemed to be the force that moved COM forward. However, as time went on, I realized by shifting the load forward, I was increasing the load towards the front of the ski. This also put more load on the lead arm......By increasing this pressure I could get a better release to form the Reverse C, and a resulting better carryout.

    My final conclusion was it is a "Combination" of back arm pressure, twisting and advancing COM forward, immediately causing front arm pressure to the straight leading arm. Since ZO reacts to this load, actually "Both" arms are now loaded.

    Hope this sheds a different light on the subject and I didn't confuse anyone to much......Big E
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    Great comments Ed, I really like your discription. I agree with all and agree that COM will face outbound off the 2nd wake more with this technique. I do believe that most of the load is always on the lead arm untill the moment you actuall release. I also like the idea of keeping the inside elbow on the hip before you release @Marco . As I think more deeply about this I believe that you keep the pressure on the outside/leading arm, As you release the load from the lead arm give a moment and maintain body awareness to the inside elbow and maintain it at the hip before you allow the extention. Nate does seem to do that. This has been a great discussion. By the way in my mind there is no old school / new school. There is efficient or in efficient. I want to be as efficient as possible.
  • h2oskierh2oskier Posts: 9 Baller
    I appreciate all the tips. I am trying them this week to see if I can correct this problem. You have all been most helpful.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,232 Mega Baller
    A lot happens on the water, but if you focused on transferring some load on your left hand as soon as you hit the second wake, you should feel the ski move out from under you to a leading position and if you keep elbows in tight, you will likely experience one of the best one balls you ever had. Next, try to remember to do the opposite into 2 ball, and so on.
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    This is going to sound too easy to many of you, but all I do is keep my vision fixed on a spot about 30 feet before (up course) of the buoy and ski to it. Swing ski, turn buoy, repeat.
    Jim Ross
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,345 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @razorskier1 that seems to be helping me a bunch as well, though I think I'm less than 30 feet. If I just keep that gaze a split second longer than when I'm tempted to put the ball in focus rather than in peripheral vision, then release, then find ball holy smokes.
    This comes following a lean without overloading and an early edge change initiation. Put it all together and bueno.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    @6balls -- I believe what it does is makes you do the other stuff right. You can't ski to that spot without keeping two hands on longer and maintaining outbound angle. It is just my way of thinking of one thing that fixes two or three others.
    Jim Ross
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    @Rich could you please clarify for this newb which arm is which in your descriptions? which is lead and which is inside etc? thank you!
  • RichRich Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    when going towards 2 ball lead arm is left, going to 3 right
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    thanks. thought so but wanted to be sure
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